A ZERO Curl and a ZERO divergence

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    Curl Divergence Zero
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the theorem related to vector fields with zero divergence and their relationship to curl, particularly in the context of physics applications like electricity and magnetism. Participants explore the conditions under which such a theorem holds and the implications of these conditions.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant states that given sufficient continuity and differentiability, every vector function A with div(V) = 0 yields a vector function U such that V = curl(U), questioning the proof of this theorem.
  • Another participant suggests that a proof may involve constructing a vector potential, noting that the theorem might only hold locally due to integration region issues.
  • A participant challenges the initial claim, asserting that certain conditions on the domain are necessary for the result to hold, specifically mentioning open and star-shaped domains and referencing the Poincaré lemma.
  • One participant corrects their earlier example of a vector field, indicating a specific case of a curlless vector field and its implications for scalar potential.
  • A later reply reiterates the connection to the Poincaré lemma, emphasizing its significance in determining the existence of a potential function under various conditions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the conditions required for the theorem to hold, with some emphasizing the necessity of specific domain characteristics while others focus on the general applicability of the theorem. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the proof and the conditions under which the theorem is valid.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations related to the domain of the vector field, including the need for conditions like openness and star-shaped properties, as well as the implications of singularities in vector fields.

Robt Massagli
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A ZERO Divergence Vector Field

There is theorem that is widely used in physics--e.g., electricity and magnetism for which I have no proof, yet we use this theorem at the drop of a hat. The theorem is this:

Given sufficient continuity and differentiability, every vector function A such that div(V) = 0 yields a vector function U such V = curl(U).

Is there a simple proof of this?
 
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I think a proof of this might go along the lines of constructing (a formula for) the vector potential, where the construction holds only for divergence-less vector fields.

Also, there are likely issues of the region over which you are integrating. Your statement above may only be guaranteed locally, a subtle point that is often glossed over in physics courses.

I'll try to describe this issue in the case of a curlless vector field being the gradient of some scalar potential.

The vector field (-y/r,x/r), I think that has zero curl, so locally it has a scalar potential, but globally it is not possible. The theorems don't apply because there is a singularity in the vector field at the origin.

You can visualize the potential function as a winding staircase, so the gradient points up the stairs, locally you can describe the height of the stairs, but if you make more than a full loop around the pole, your height will not be well defined over the plane.
 
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This is not true. We need certain conditions on the domain in order to get this result. A nice condition that we can demand is that the domain of the vector field is open and star-shaped. For example, an open ball would satisfy this, or entire \mathbb{R}^3 would satisfy this as well.

In the case of an open and star-shaped domain, the result is true and is given by the so-called Poincaré lemma. Even more general, the Poincaré lemma holds for contractible domains.

A proof of this can be found in "Calculus on manifolds" by Spivak. The result is theorem 4-11 p94. However, it is stated in the language of differential forms. Exercise 4-19 in the same chapter relate differential forms to the more common notions of div, grad and curl.
 
I made a typo above, I think my example should have been

(-y/r^2,x/r^2)
 


Robt Massagli said:
There is theorem that is widely used in physics--e.g., electricity and magnetism for which I have no proof, yet we use this theorem at the drop of a hat. The theorem is this:

Given sufficient continuity and differentiability, every vector function A such that div(V) = 0 yields a vector function U such V = curl(U).

Is there a simple proof of this?
I think you are referrring to a particular case of a general result called Poincaré Lemma, which states under which condition a function called "potential" can exist, in a wide range of situations. It is indeed an extremely powerful result.
 

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