- #36
somasimple
Gold Member
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The two figures are linked and give us many lessons?
I also accept the facts, but I agree with the theory. Your disagreement with the cable theory is irrational since you have not yet demonstrated that the accepted facts contradict the theory. However, you are certainly free to have irrational opinions.somasimple said:I do not agree with theory but accept facts.
DaleSpam said:I also accept the facts, but I agree with the theory. Your disagreement with the cable theory is irrational since you have not yet demonstrated that the accepted facts contradict the theory. However, you are certainly free to have irrational opinions.
It is always hard to understand your plots since you never label anything and never describe your derivation. But from what I can guess (assuming you are doing everything correctly) you are modeling the cable equation response to a square pulse current input. If so, you correctly note that the cable model predicts that there is no delay between the "near" and "far" measurements, and also the cable model predicts that there is a decreasing amplitude between the "near" and "far" measurements.somasimple said:https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1874067&postcount=14
Where is the propagated delay within these graphs?
somasimple said:So we have, during a single AP, a speed that varies with a shape that do not!
They recorded the same duration! It is a fact.
You may replace the AP by a train.
Put three observers at Node 1, A1, in the middle of the internode, A2 and then at Node2, A3.
A1 sees the train normally at speed 23 m/s and the observation duration is 0.5 ms.
A2 sees the train normally at speed >> 23 m/s and the observation duration is 0.5 ms.
A3 sees the train normally at speed 23 m/s and the observation duration is 0.5 ms.
You violate some laws of physics for sure. A2 can't see the train during 0.5 ms.
No it is not possible at all.I think it's quite ok for a shape to remain constant while the speed changes
somasimple said:No it is not possible at all.
If the length of the train is well defined then the duration of its observation must be shortened with speed.
A train isn't elastic at all. The fig 7 expects the contrary. You can't have a portion of a train that runs at 23 m/s then some wagons that runs at a higher speed and finally some others at the original speed.
somasimple said:They are in line (arranged in a linear fashion) but the traveled distance is different at node vs internodes.
I'll bring a better graph.
The duration of the AP that remains constant.Which part is problematic?
You can't see these things during the same event (the first AP) since you observe a low speed at nodes and a fast at internodes. There is no interruption during the observations.A single car can accelerate and decelerate any way it wants.
Yes and no. You need transitions between speeds. You have not any transition in that cases.A single car can accelerate and decelerate any way it wants.
somasimple said:The duration of the AP that remains constant.
You are clearly mistaken about http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=16991863" showing that the shape of the AP is not changing. For example, in the bottom part of the figure note that at t = 0.55 ms the peak voltage (line B) is uniquely located at position d = 1 mm. In contrast, at t = 0.6 ms the peak voltage (line B) is simultaneously at all points from d = 1 mm to d = 3 mm. That is a definite change in shape, and this idea is repeated throughout the bottom part of fig 7.somasimple said:This figure 7 is the proof I need.
It shows at nodes a quite stationary speed (quite = 0)
And a very high speed during under myelin.
Unfortunately, the AP shape remains quite the same.
As we said the AP duration is 0.5 ms (Huxley shows 0.3 but shrinks the curves by computation).
So we have, during a single AP, a speed that varies with a shape that do not!
They recorded the same duration! It is a fact.
The action potential is an electrical signal, not some massive rigid object like a train or a car. If you understood the data at all it would be clear to you that the shape does, in fact, change. It is not a massive body that resists acceleration (so you see saltatory conduction) nor does it resist deformation (so you see shape changes). The whole point of saltatory conduction is that the AP jumps and does not move at a steady speed like a train.somasimple said:You may replace the AP by a train.
Put three observers at Node 1, A1, in the middle of the internode, A2 and then at Node2, A3.
A1 sees the train normally at speed 23 m/s and the observation duration is 0.5 ms.
A2 sees the train normally at speed >> 23 m/s and the observation duration is 0.5 ms.
A3 sees the train normally at speed 23 m/s and the observation duration is 0.5 ms.
You violate some laws of physics for sure. A2 can't see the train during 0.5 ms.