A An argument against Bohmian mechanics?

  • #361
Demystifier said:
Such a probability cannot be assigned in standard QM, but it does not imply that it cannot be assigned in any theory, perhaps some more fundamental theory (yet unknown) for which QM is only an approximation. There should exist general logical rules which can be applied to any theory of nature, not only to a particular theory (such as QM) which, after all, may not be final theory of everything. In such a general logical framework, the statement ##S_x=+1\wedge S_y=-1## must not be forbidden.

What can such a theory look like? Well, the minimal Bohmian mechanics is not such a theory, because minimal BM cannot associate a probability with ##S_x=+1\wedge S_y=-1##. This is because spin is not ontological in minimal BM.

I'm a little confused about this. Suppose that we do the following:
  • Prepare an electron in a state that is spin-up in the z-direction.
  • Either measure spin in the x-direction, or spin in the y-direction. To make it more Bohmian, we specify that the spin measurement is done with a Stern Gerlach device, so that spin-up means the electron is deflected in one direction, and spin-down means it is deflected in another direction.
In Bohmian mechanics, the apparent nondeterminism is due to lack of knowledge of the precise location of the electron. So to say that the electron goes one direction or another with 50/50 probability means that for some initial locations, the electron will deflect in one direction, and for some initial locations, it will deflect in the other direction. That implies that the volume of the lab is partitioned into two sets: V_{xL}, those points \vec{r} such that an electron initially at that location will veer left when the Stern Gerlach device is oriented in the x-direction, and V_{xR}, those points such that the electron initially at that location will veer right. Similarly, there are sets V_{yL} and V_{yR} for the case where the Stern Gerlach device is oriented in the y-direction.

Now, it seems to me that it should make sense to ask about the set V_{yL} \cap V_{xL}, the set of points that would veer left, given either choice of measurement orientation. Presumably this set has a measure. So how is this different from the hidden variable that Bell proved did not exist? I understand that Bohmian mechanics, being nonlocal, allows for the sets V_{xL}, V_{xR}, V_{yL}, V_{yR} to depend on details of the detector. But for a given detector (and maybe, for a given method of choosing which orientation to measure), it seems that there would be sets V_{aL}, V_{aR} for all possible axes a.
 
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  • #362
stevendaryl said:
I'm a little confused about this. Suppose that we do the following:
  • Prepare an electron in a state that is spin-up in the z-direction.
  • Either measure spin in the x-direction, or spin in the y-direction. To make it more Bohmian, we specify that the spin measurement is done with a Stern Gerlach device, so that spin-up means the electron is deflected in one direction, and spin-down means it is deflected in another direction.
In Bohmian mechanics, the apparent nondeterminism is due to lack of knowledge of the precise location of the electron. So to say that the electron goes one direction or another with 50/50 probability means that for some initial locations, the electron will deflect in one direction, and for some initial locations, it will deflect in the other direction. That implies that the volume of the lab is partitioned into two sets: V_{xL}, those points \vec{r} such that an electron initially at that location will veer left when the Stern Gerlach device is oriented in the x-direction, and V_{xR}, those points such that the electron initially at that location will veer right. Similarly, there are sets V_{yL} and V_{yR} for the case where the Stern Gerlach device is oriented in the y-direction.

Now, it seems to me that it should make sense to ask about the set V_{yL} \cap V_{xL}, the set of points that would veer left, given either choice of measurement orientation. Presumably this set has a measure. So how is this different from the hidden variable that Bell proved did not exist? I understand that Bohmian mechanics, being nonlocal, allows for the sets V_{xL}, V_{xR}, V_{yL}, V_{yR} to depend on details of the detector. But for a given detector (and maybe, for a given method of choosing which orientation to measure), it seems that there would be sets V_{aL}, V_{aR} for all possible axes a.
From this post, I can tell that your understanding of BM is very good. :smile: So my answer will be rather short.

The set V_{yL} \cap V_{xL} has a measure, but for ideal measurements this measure is zero. For realistic measurements it is not zero, but is negligible FAPP (For All Practical Purposes). Nevertheless, let us consider a case in which this measure is sufficiently large so that we cannot neglect it. Then a pointer can be both inside V_{yL} and inside V_{yL}. Naively, one might say that this means that we have measured both ##S_x## and ##S_y##. But I think a better interpretation is that we measured neither ##S_x## nor ##S_y##. If an apparatus cannot sharply distinguish between measurement of ##S_x## and measurement of ##S_y##, then it is not very meaningful to interpret this apparatus as a device which measures any of those two quantities. To measure two observables we need two sharp pointers. Here we have only one blurred pointer, and one blurred pointer is not a good substitute for two sharp pointers. (For analogy, consider a mechanical clock with two sharp needles, one for measuring hours and another for measuring minutes. Do you think that you could measure both hours and minutes with only one blurred needle?) And this conclusion does not depend on whether you accept Bohmian or some purely instrumental interpretation of QM.
 
  • #363
Demystifier said:
From this post, I can tell that your understanding of BM is very good. :smile: So my answer will be rather short.

The set V_{yL} \cap V_{xL} has a measure, but for ideal measurements this measure is zero. For realistic measurements it is not zero, but is negligible FAPP (For All Practical Purposes).

Hmm. I don't see how that can work. V_{yL} has to have measure 1/2. V_{xL} similarly has measure 1/2. So if they have negligible overlap, that would imply V_{xL} = \bar{V_{yL}} (the complement). But \bar{V_{yL}} = V_{yR}. So that would seem to mean that V_{xL} = V_{yR}. But that can't be right.
 
  • #364
stevendaryl said:
Hmm. I don't see how that can work. V_{yL} has to have measure 1/2. V_{xL} similarly has measure 1/2. So if they have negligible overlap, that would imply V_{xL} = \bar{V_{yL}} (the complement). But \bar{V_{yL}} = V_{yR}. So that would seem to mean that V_{xL} = V_{yR}. But that can't be right.
No. In the previous post you assumed that the whole lab is partitioned into two sets: ##V_{xL}## and ##V_{xR}##. But it was wrong. Most parts of the lab do not belong to any of those two sets. For instance, I can have a picture of my wife at the table in my lab, and this picture of my wife does not belong to any of those two sets. The picture of my wife does not play any role in the measurement of spin. The Stern-Gerlach apparatus produces rather narrow beams in the up or down direction, and neither of the beams hits the picture of my wife at the table.
 
  • #365
Demystifier said:
No. In the previous post you assumed that the whole lab is partitioned into two sets: ##V_{xL}## and ##V_{xR}##. But it was wrong. Most parts of the lab do not belong to any of those two sets. For instance, I can have a picture of my wife at the table in my lab, and this picture of my wife does not belong to any of those two sets. The picture of my wife does not play any role in the measurement of spin. The Stern-Gerlach apparatus produces rather narrow beams in the up or down direction, and neither of the beams hits the picture of my wife at the table.

Good point. But I don't see how that changes much. You have a beam of electrons, and you partition that beam into parts that will go left and parts that will go right.
 
  • #366
stevendaryl said:
So to say that the electron goes one direction or another with 50/50 probability means that for some initial locations, the electron will deflect in one direction, and for some initial locations, it will deflect in the other direction.
...
So how is this different from the hidden variable that Bell proved did not exist?
I would say that this is the point of stevendaryl's post.
If all the uncertainty in the electron's trajectory depends only on it's initial position then Bell inequalities apply. There has to be some non-local influence to account for entanglement correlations in realistic model.
 
  • #367
stevendaryl said:
how is this different from the hidden variable that Bell proved did not exist?

Because it's nonlocal; the equation of motion for each individual trajectory, which is what determines which set it is in (which way a particle on that trajectory will go when it passes through the Stern Gerlach device) includes the quantum potential, which samples the wave function everywhere in the universe at a given instant. (Note that this is obviously non-relativistic; AFAIK there are difficulties with trying to make a relativistic theory along these lines that nobody has satisfactorily addressed.)
 
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  • #368
zonde said:
I would say that this is the point of stevendaryl's post.
If all the uncertainty in the electron's trajectory depends only on it's initial position then Bell inequalities apply. There has to be some non-local influence to account for entanglement correlations in realistic model.
This was also my point in #283. The distinction local versus nonlocal has no empirical or operational meaning for classical realistic(i.e. hidden variables) theories because one can either consider they have nonlocal implicit influence(but no way to observe FTL signaling) as you say or if one decides the theory is local by the independent construction of the hidden variables there is no way to design an experiment to show this as it would be require the use of an instantaneous measure of spacelike separated events(i.e. FTL signaling) to do it, which is a strange way for a theory to be local . Therefore there is absolutely no scientific content in considering hidden variables local or nonlocal and Bell violations reject all hidden variables according to this.
 
  • #369
PeterDonis said:
Because it's nonlocal; the equation of motion for each individual trajectory, which is what determines which set it is in (which way a particle on that trajectory will go when it passes through the Stern Gerlach device) includes the quantum potential, which samples the wave function everywhere in the universe at a given instant. (Note that this is obviously non-relativistic; AFAIK there are difficulties with trying to make a relativistic theory along these lines that nobody has satisfactorily addressed.)
See my post above, I don't think there is any content in saying that it is nonlocal(that informs of something in addition to its being a hidden variable theory I mean).
 
  • #370
I would like to check my understanding. In BM quantum potential depends on particle's position and wave function, I suppose. And it seems to me that measurement of remote particle can't change wave function of first particle in any way except for phase factor. So this phase factor should be the thing that changes quantum potential.
 
  • #371
stevendaryl said:
Good point. But I don't see how that changes much. You have a beam of electrons, and you partition that beam into parts that will go left and parts that will go right.
When you measure ##S_x##, then you have a left-beam (L) and right-beam (R). When you measure ##S_y##, then you have an up-beam (U) and a down-beam (D). All together you have to think of four (not two) beams: L, R, U, D. Since each of the four beams goes into a different direction, these four beams do not mutually overlap.
 
  • #372
zonde said:
I would like to check my understanding. In BM quantum potential depends on particle's position and wave function, I suppose.
No, quantum potential depends only on the wave function.
 
  • #373
RockyMarciano said:
This was also my point in #283. The distinction local versus nonlocal has no empirical or operational meaning for classical realistic(i.e. hidden variables) theories because one can either consider they have nonlocal implicit influence(but no way to observe FTL signaling) as you say or if one decides the theory is local by the independent construction of the hidden variables there is no way to design an experiment to show this as it would be require the use of an instantaneous measure of spacelike separated events(i.e. FTL signaling) to do it, which is a strange way for a theory to be local . Therefore there is absolutely no scientific content in considering hidden variables local or nonlocal and Bell violations reject all hidden variables according to this.
I don't understand your argument. Say there is model that is using nonlocal influences and allows violation of Bell inequalities while it does not allow FTL signaling using higher level phenomena. Why it should be rejected?
 
  • #374
Demystifier said:
When you measure ##S_x##, then you have a left-beam (L) and right-beam (R). When you measure ##S_y##, then you have an up-beam (U) and a down-beam (D). All together you have to think of four (not two) beams: L, R, U, D. Since each of the four beams goes into a different direction, these four beams do not mutually overlap.
It seems like you take or leave determinism whenever it is convenient for your argument. If you stick to determinism you cannot consider four beams there.
 
  • #375
zonde said:
I don't understand your argument. Say there is model that is using nonlocal influences and allows violation of Bell inequalities while it does not allow FTL signaling using higher level phenomena. Why it should be rejected?
I don't understnd your question very well(what are higher level phenomena?) but what is the meaning, the actual observational content, of using nonlocal influences if it doesn't allow FTL signaling?
I don't think I'm saying anything much different than you in #366 anyway.
 
  • #376
RockyMarciano said:
It seems like you take or leave determinism whenever it is convenient for your argument. If you stick to determinism you cannot consider four beams there.
Fundamental determinism is compatible with effective probabilistic laws. For instance, laws of coin flipping are fundamentally deterministic, yet it behaves as being probabilistic for practical purposes. That's why you consider both possible outcomes in a single coin flipping.
 
  • #377
Demystifier said:
Fundamental determinism is compatible with effective probabilistic laws. For instance, laws of coin flipping are fundamentally deterministic, yet it behaves as being probabilistic for practical purposes. That's why you consider both possible outcomes in a single coin flipping.
I absolutely agree with this(I said something similar pages ago), but that compatibility with classical probabilities is attributed to lack of information, you consider both outcomes for the coin flipping because you don't know the initial conditions with enough accuracy, but determinism dictates that if you happened to know the initial conditions, there is only one side of the coin in principle, and the discussion with stevendaryl refers to the "in principle" case. The situation where you actually consider all the options as equally valid in principle is that of QM, of course when adding the Born rule you only have probabilities that allow BM to claim it has the same observational results, but if you blur the distinction between probabilities due to lack of knowledge versus intrinsic probabilities due to quantum superposition you are getting rid of classical realism also, which is the very idea you are defending.
 
  • #378
RockyMarciano said:
and the discussion with stevendaryl refers to the "in principle" case
I don't think that you properly understood my discussion with stevendaryl.
 
  • #379
Demystifier said:
I don't think that you properly understood my discussion with stevendaryl.
This might well be. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out you were the only one that properly understood the discussion according to you.
 
  • #380
RockyMarciano said:
This might well be. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out you were the only one that properly understood the discussion according to you.
I think that atyy and stevendaryl understand it very well too.
 
  • #381
Demystifier said:
I think that atyy and stevendaryl understand it very well too.
Well, the discussion is not over yet(I think) :cool::wink:
 
  • #382
atyy said:
Well, at least you are consistent. I've always thought the mystery was why silly things like the canonical ensemble actually work :)
Yes, those who consider it a mystery try to resolve it by silly ideas such as ergodicity. Those (including me) who do not consider it a mystery don't need ergodicity.

(EDIT: This is my 7.000th post.)
 
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  • #383
Demystifier said:
Yes, those who consider it a mystery try to resolve it by silly ideas such as ergodicity. Those (including me) who do not consider it a mystery don't need ergodicity.

(EDIT: This is my 7.000th post.)
From time to time some discussions on PF give me the impression that there is something about statistical mechanics that I simply don't see. Maybe its because I'm just a master's student who is just learning it and I need time to see it the way you guys see it but I'm just curious what's going on. You know what I mean? If yes, can you provide a reference that can shed some light on these things you guys sometimes talk about?

P.S.
Congrats on your 7000th post.:wink:
 
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  • #384
Demystifier said:
(EDIT: This is my 7.000th post.)

You make me feel downright lazy. :smile:
 
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  • #385
stevendaryl said:
But in EPR, Alice and Bob both measure the x-component of spin of their respective spin-1/2 particles. They always get opposite results. That is not a matter of having one result blocked.

Sure, they just measure the x component of the spin. What I described, is what's usually called "collapse", i.e., the preparation of an observable to have a determined value by filtering, which indeed means just to block all the unwanted states.
 
  • #386
ShayanJ said:
From time to time some discussions on PF give me the impression that there is something about statistical mechanics that I simply don't see. Maybe its because I'm just a master's student who is just learning it and I need time to see it the way you guys see it but I'm just curious what's going on. You know what I mean? If yes, can you provide a reference that can shed some light on these things you guys sometimes talk about?
See the links in post #12 of this thread.
 
  • #387
RockyMarciano said:
I don't think there is any content in saying that it is nonlocal

Sure there is; "nonlocal" means not factorizable, "local" means factorizable. Or, equivalently, nonlocal means "violates Bell inequalities", local means "satisfies Bell inequalities". It's easy to test. We've been over this.
 
  • #388
zonde said:
If all the uncertainty in the electron's trajectory depends only on it's initial position then Bell inequalities apply.

Nope. Bohmian mechanics is an explicit counterexample: each individual trajectory is deterministic, but its equation of motion includes the quantum potential, which is what allows it to violate the Bell inequalities (because the quantum potential leads to the QM prediction for joint probabilities of measurement results, which is not factorizable). Bell explicitly discussed this exact point.
 
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  • #389
Let's analyze the interplay between classical logic and probability theory.

In (a model of) classical propositional logic, we have n-ary predicates ##P(x_1,\ldots,x_n)## that (essentially, I don't want to introduce ##\models##) map the elements of a set ##X## into the truth values ##\top##, ##\bot##. These predicates (applied to elements) constitute statements. We can build new statements by using logical connectives like ##\neg##, ##\wedge##, ##\vee## in the usual way and these statements will also attain truth values.

Now, we can represent this algebra of statements by subsets of ##X## in the following way: To each unary predicate ##P(x)##, we associate a subset ##U_P = \{x : P(x)\}##. Using some basic set theory, we can check that ##U_{P\wedge Q} = U_P \cap U_Q##, ##U_{P\vee Q} = U_P \cup U_Q## and ##U_{\neg P} = X \setminus U_P##.

Let's say, we are interested in a list of unary predicates about the set ##X##. We can form the algebra of predicates, obtained from applying arbitrary logical connectives to that list. We can represent this algebra of predicates by a set algebra ##\Sigma## of subsets of ##X##. This algebra can equivalently be obtained by taking arbitrary (finite) unions and intersections of the subsets ##U_P## associated to the predicates we're interested in. In order to make contact with probability theory, we need to allow for countably many unions and intersections and we need ##X\in\Sigma##.

Associating probabilities to statements like ##P(x)## means specifying a probability measure on ##\Sigma##, i.e. a function ##p:\Sigma\rightarrow [0,1]## that satisfies some basic axioms like ##p(X)=1##. The triple ##(X,\Sigma,p)## forms a probability space.

We can define random variables on ##X## as (measurable) functions ##A:X\rightarrow\mathbb R##. We will later be interested in the random variables
$$\chi_P(x) = \begin{cases}1 & P(x) \\ 0 & \neg P(x)\end{cases} \text{.}$$
Using these random variables, the statement ##P(x)## is equivalent to ##\chi_P(x) = 1##. We can also check that ##\chi_P(x)^2 = \chi_P(x)##.

On the set ##\mathcal R## of random variables, we can introduce the so called valuation maps ##\nu_x : \mathcal R \rightarrow \mathbb R##, which just evaluate a random variable at ##x##: ##\nu_x(A)=A(x)##. If ##X## is not empty, then obviously at least one such ##\nu_x## exists. We can easily check that ##\nu_x(AB)=\nu_x(A)\nu_x(B)## and ##\nu_x(A+B)=\nu_x(A)+\nu_x(B)##. If we have ##\nu_x(A^2)=\nu_x(A)##, then it follows that ##A(x)=1## or ##A(x)=0##, i.e. ##A(x)## is a function of the type ##\chi_P(x)##.

We now want to know, whether we can represent all propositions about quantum systems using classical logic. So let's first define what we mean by a proposition about a quantum system. Given a Hilbert space ##\mathcal H##, a quantum proposition ##\hat P\in\mathcal P## is just an orthogonal projector ##\hat P:\mathcal H\rightarrow \mathcal H## (i.e. ##\hat P^\dagger = \hat P## and ##\hat P^2=\hat P##).

If quantum propositions ##\hat P## could be represented using classical logic, then there would be a map ##r:\mathcal P\rightarrow \mathcal R## of the quantum propositions into the random variables on some probability space ##(X,\Sigma,p)##. On a classical probability space, there exists at least one valuation map ##\nu_x##. If a such a map ##r## did exist, then we could define a valuation map on the set of quantum propositions by ##\nu=\nu_x\circ r##. Since commuting quantum propositions behave like propositions in classical logic, we would require ##\nu## to behave like a classical valuation map at least for commuting observables, i.e. we would require ##\nu(\hat P+\hat Q)=\nu(\hat P)+\nu(\hat Q)## and ##\nu(\hat P\hat Q)=\nu(\hat P)\nu(\hat Q)##. From that, we can also be sure that quantum propositions would be mapped to classical propositions, because ##\nu(\hat P^2)=\nu(\hat P)## implies that ##r(\hat P)=\chi_P## for some ##P##.

Now here comes the surprise: A well-known no-go theorem (Kochen-Specker) says that for ##dim(\mathcal H)>2##, no such valuation map ##\nu## with these properties exists! Not all propositions about quantum systems can be embedded into classical logic! If quantum mechanics is correct, we cannot reason about properties of quantum systems with only the laws of classical logic. This is independent of the interpretation and thus also applies to Bohmian mechanics.

Demystifier said:
Such a probability cannot be assigned in standard QM, but it does not imply that it cannot be assigned in any theory, perhaps some more fundamental theory (yet unknown) for which QM is only an approximation.
The above considerations show that we cannot hope for this unless quantum mechanics is incorrect.

There should exist general logical rules which can be applied to any theory of nature, not only to a particular theory (such as QM) which, after all, may not be final theory of everything. In such a general logical framework, the statement ##S_x=+1\wedge S_y=-1## must not be forbidden.
Such a theory cannot make the same predictions as quantum mechanics.

What can such a theory look like? Well, the minimal Bohmian mechanics is not such a theory, because minimal BM cannot associate a probability with ##S_x=+1\wedge S_y=-1##. This is because spin is not ontological in minimal BM. However, there is a non-minimal version of BM (see the book by Holland) in which spin is ontological and ##S_x=+1\wedge S_y=-1## makes perfect sense. Nevertheless, this theory makes the same measurable predictions as standard QM.
This must necessarily use the ##d=2## loophole and can't be extended to all quantum systems.

I am not saying that this non-minimal version of BM is how nature really works. Personally, I think it isn't. What I am saying is that there is a logical possibility that nature might work that way. Therefore it is not very wise to restrict logical rules to a form which forbids you to even think about such alternative theories.
You can of course leave this possibility open, but then you must propose a theory that disagrees with quantum mechanical predictions.
 
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  • #390
PeterDonis said:
Sure there is; "nonlocal" means not factorizable, "local" means factorizable. Or, equivalently, nonlocal means "violates Bell inequalities", local means "satisfies Bell inequalities".
Ok, I see where the confusion comes from, according to your definitions you are using the word "local" for what I'm calling "classical realistic", and is represented mathematically by the Bell inequalities. And you are calling "nonlocal" what I define as "nonrealist". I think my terminolgy is more adequate to the mainstream use, as used for example in the recent Nature paper on Bell violation by Hansen. Although I've seen the terminology "nonlocal" for theories violating the Bell inequalities in pop-science literature, I prefer to keep the term nonlocal for theorias that allow FTL signaling, like in the Nature paper.
So when I say nonlocal doesn't add anything meaninful to realist I really mean that "nonrealist realist" theories don't make much sense.
 

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