An Impressive Rescue: Chilean Miners

  • #26
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I had been thinking of few things:

- Can the cost of saving those miners be justified
- I believe relatives were literally living on the site which is also bit interesting
- Politicians took really good advantage of this accident
- Media also brought great focus to this event; making it something similar to World Cup
 
  • #27
lisab
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Chi Chi Chi,
le le le!

Yay, they're all out!
 
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  • #28
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- Can the cost of saving those miners be justified
Are you really going to put a price on these peoples lives? I'd like to see you say that if your father was down there. Have a bit of heart.
But no, I'm sure that an economic analysis would show it unjustifiable to save them.

- I believe relatives were literally living on the site which is also bit interesting
A bit overkill, but they obviously care (that or they've been getting loads of free stuff by staying there).

- Politicians took really good advantage of this accident
Nothing new there, got to try and make themselves look good somehow.

- Media also brought great focus to this event; making it something similar to World Cup
I found this to be far more interesting (I can't stand football).

And before anyone says anything, they're all out so I don't feel bad about making smart a** remarks.
 
  • #29
lisab
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- Can the cost of saving those miners be justified
Are you really going to put a price on these peoples lives? I'd like to see you say that if your father was down there. Have a bit of heart.
But no, I'm sure that an economic analysis would show it unjustifiable to save them.

- I believe relatives were literally living on the site which is also bit interesting
A bit overkill, but they obviously care (that or they've been getting loads of free stuff by staying there).

- Politicians took really good advantage of this accident
Nothing new there, got to try and make themselves look good somehow.

- Media also brought great focus to this event; making it something similar to World Cup
I found this to be far more interesting (I can't stand football).

And before anyone says anything, they're all out so I don't feel bad about making smart a** remarks.
I'm happy they're out, too.

I think there's a tendency for some people to shoot down good news, take a cynical view. But sometimes it's ok to simply enjoy good news. I think this is a great story, I'm happy for the miners and their families.
 
  • #30
Office_Shredder
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- Can the cost of saving those miners be justified
What is the cost, and who is paying for it? We need facts before we can even start a discussion like that
 
  • #31
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I'm happy they're out, too.

I think there's a tendency for some people to shoot down good news, take a cynical view. But sometimes it's ok to simply enjoy good news. I think this is a great story, I'm happy for the miners and their families.
I enjoyed this news coverage also, and am very happy that the miners are out and well. But I'm still baffled by the mechanism that catapulted this accident to front pages of every news outlet in the world. I'm sure there are industrial accidents going on all the time; people die all the time, and we barely hear about that.
 
  • #32
lisab
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I enjoyed this news coverage also, and am very happy that the miners are out and well. But I'm still baffled by the mechanism that catapulted this accident to front pages of every news outlet in the world. I'm sure there are industrial accidents going on all the time; people die all the time, and we barely hear about that.
Hmm...I don't think I heard about it until they were discovered alive, all of them, 17 days later. Until then, I think it was just a tragic local story.
 
  • #33
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What beautiful faces these people had and looks of love. We were watching it is spanish and don't speak it too much so the words did not spoil watching the joy. Just waiting for the last rescue people to get out.
 
  • #34
Office_Shredder
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I enjoyed this news coverage also, and am very happy that the miners are out and well. But I'm still baffled by the mechanism that catapulted this accident to front pages of every news outlet in the world. I'm sure there are industrial accidents going on all the time; people die all the time, and we barely hear about that.
If people die all the time it's a news story when they don't. This is like the most challenging rescue situation in the history of mankind, how could it not be news?
 
  • #35
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- Can the cost of saving those miners be justified
Are you really going to put a price on these peoples lives? I'd like to see you say that if your father was down there. Have a bit of heart.
But no, I'm sure that an economic analysis would show it unjustifiable to save them.

- I believe relatives were literally living on the site which is also bit interesting
A bit overkill, but they obviously care (that or they've been getting loads of free stuff by staying there).

- Politicians took really good advantage of this accident
Nothing new there, got to try and make themselves look good somehow.

- Media also brought great focus to this event; making it something similar to World Cup
I found this to be far more interesting (I can't stand football).

And before anyone says anything, they're all out so I don't feel bad about making smart a** remarks.
It was indeed a good story but they did not require the treatment they received. I followed this story in the beginning before this turned into big drama or hype: all the psychologists talking to the miners .. etc.

IIRC from the last month, the company went bankrupt and families were well compensated.
 
  • #36
Ivan Seeking
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The last rescue worker has emerged and no one is left down below. What a fantastic success story!
 
  • #37
turbo
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The last rescue worker has emerged and no one is left down below. What a fantastic success story!
Yay! This is a wonderful result. Let's hope that none of the miners ever feels the need to return to that occupation. It might be hard to go back down, even if one's family relied on that money.
 
  • #38
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- Can the cost of saving those miners be justified
Are you really going to put a price on these peoples lives? I'd like to see you say that if your father was down there. Have a bit of heart.
But no, I'm sure that an economic analysis would show it unjustifiable to save them.
You were on the 'the firefighters should have put out the fire even though the guy didn't pay is $75 fee' side too, weren't you? Similar issue: like it or not, there is a cost associated with these things and *someone* has to pay it. It's a legitimate question and the answer is not as simple as you are making it out to be. You can't just throw the analysis out the window and do what your heart tells you in all life and death situations. Heck, in a lot of cases, that'll end up causing more deaths than it prevents!
 
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  • #39
russ_watters
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IIRC from the last month, the company went bankrupt and families were well compensated.
Does that mean the Chilean government paid the miners and paid for the rescues? Was NASA's involvement donated by the US govt?
 
  • #40
Borek
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You were on the 'the firefighters should have put out the fire even though the guy didn't pay is $75 fee' side too, weren't you? Similar issue: like it or not, there is a cost associated with these things and *someone* has to pay it. It's a legitimate question and the answer is not as simple as you are making it out to be. You can't just throw the analysis out the window and do what your heart tells you in all life and death situations. Heck, in a lot of cases, that'll end up causing more deaths than it prevents!
That reminded me of this post of mine:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=1793347
 
  • #41
russ_watters
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You were on the 'the firefighters should have put out the fire even though the guy didn't pay is $75 fee' side too, weren't you? Similar issue: like it or not, there is a cost associated with these things and *someone* has to pay it. It's a legitimate question and the answer is not as simple as you are making it out to be. You can't just throw the analysis out the window and do what your heart tells you in all life and death situations. Heck, in a lot of cases, that'll end up causing more deaths than it prevents!
Late edit, new post: More to the point, you certainly don't in your own life - no mentally healthy person does. I can virtually guarantee you that you make the wrong decision on a dozen situations a day where you risk death with that decision, whether money is associated or not. In many cases, you don't do simple things to help preserve your own life, even if it is free or costs you less than doing the wrong thing!

I watched and felt compelled by the drama and emotion and I hate myself for it. How many starving children in Africa died because the Chilean government chose to do this rescue instead of using the money to save them? Did I hear about this mine collapse when it happened? I think I did, but I can't be sure - how can I be so callous as to not have cared enough about their deaths to even remember, but now I'm excited that they lived? Doesn't that just make their life and death situation a made-for-tv event packaged for my personal amusement (and, of course, the advertising money)? It angers me that I fall for such things and that I place such little value on human life when it isn't a compelling drama.
 
  • #42
arildno
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I had been thinking of few things:

- Can the cost of saving those miners be justified
Interesting question.

In my view, "free market" does not mean that participants on every sub-market/branch can equally irresponsibly seek their fortunes on that particular sub-market.

There might well be branches where a particular degree of integrity can be required of those wishing to establish a company.

For example, very few branches of our economy necessitate a high-hazard work environment for their employees.

I don't see why it would be wrong to implement a licensing system for minimg companies where they only can get a license if they accept the obligation to do their utmost (also financially) to save the lives of their employers if an accident occurs.

So, if you don't want to be financially responsible for the lives of your employees, you shouldn't be running a mining company; find something else to do.
 
  • #43
Borek
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I don't see why it would be wrong to implement a licensing system for minimg companies where they only can get a license if they accept the obligation to do their utmost (also financially) to save the lives of their employers if an accident occurs.
This is interesting.

I guess this would kill some high risk industries. Mining being one of them.

But basically that puts us back on square 1 - how much is life worth?
 
  • #44
arildno
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This is interesting.

I guess this would kill some high risk industries. Mining being one of them.

But basically that puts us back on square 1 - how much is life worth?
Why would it "kill" mining?

Rather, the rest of us would be required to pay a higher price for many of those products mining produces.

And, I see nothing wrong with that.

If, for example, the price of a gold watch quadruples as the result, then don't buy one.

The mining companies left will do just fine.
 
  • #45
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I watched and felt compelled by the drama and emotion and I hate myself for it. How many starving children in Africa died because the Chilean government chose to do this rescue instead of using the money to save them? Did I hear about this mine collapse when it happened? I think I did, but I can't be sure - how can I be so callous as to not have cared enough about their deaths to even remember, but now I'm excited that they lived? Doesn't that just make their life and death situation a made-for-tv event packaged for my personal amusement (and, of course, the advertising money)? It angers me that I fall for such things and that I place such little value on human life when it isn't a compelling drama.
What does have in common the death of kids in Africa with this Chilean rescue operation ? Nothing. Those kind of questions are purely rhetoric and IMO is just splitting the hair in 4.


The fact that unfortunately ppl still starve to death in some places of this Earth do not make the rescue of those men any less impressive. So it is with the dramatization in media with such events. It is unrelated to the fact that men and women worked around the clock in rescue teams to save those persons. Media will take advantage of many such situations, but who cares ? They'll use it in their advantage, but again, I don't care. We cant save everyone on this planet, but saving some of those lives is still better than nothing.
 
  • #46
arildno
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It should be noted this suggestion of mine is already implemented on a number of employer markets:
Only certified doctors and lawyers can practice their profession, others are prohibited by law to do so.

But, the employer market is still free among qualified sellers.

We should remember what "free market" was a reaction against:
The guild system; i.e, that, for example, the goldsmiths in a particular town had the juridical power to deny another goldsmith to settle in their town and practice their craft.

I.e, the guild system regulated the number of competitors, where the jurors themselves were the ones who would lose by the competition.

No such self-centered competitor regulation is present in a licensing system, nor is it a centralized state-directed system, for that matter.
 
  • #47
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Surely the mine owners could just take out insurance to cover an eventuality such as this?

I do agree, the cost is the responsibility of the mine owners ultimately, but it doesn't mean we should sit back and do nothing.
 
  • #48
Borek
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If, for example, the price of a gold watch quadruples as the result, then don't buy one.
From what I read this was a copper mine. In the case of copper price going up four times it is not a matter of 'don't buy', effects on the world economy will be disastrous.

<cynicism>
Not that I care much - good crisis that will kill half a population will just give some relief to the nature, whether it will start after implementing new laws to save several lives in a mining industry doesn't matter much.

</cynicism>

To get back to your idea - miners in most countries are already paid much better than many other groups of workers. That's the compensation for the risk. You want to move the risk to owners - if you don't want to go bankrupt to save your workers, don't go into mining. But one can as well say - if you don't want to risk your life for a higher wage, don't work in a mine.

But as I said earlier - it is all about the value of life. Please read the post I linked to earlier.
 
  • #49
arildno
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There is no such thing as "financially disastrous".

Economy adapts, and reinvents itself.
 
  • #50
Borek
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Surely the mine owners could just take out insurance to cover an eventuality such as this?
I guess they are insured. I am also more than sure that insurance companies will pay costs of the rescue operation up to some predefined limit. That's just another hidden way of putting a price tag on the human life.
 

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