Anyone sign up with Obamacare yet?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Greg Bernhardt
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Sign
AI Thread Summary
The discussion centers on the high cost of health insurance under the Affordable Care Act (ACA), with one participant expressing frustration over a $450 monthly premium and a $9,000 deductible for a plan that offers little value unless serious health issues arise. Participants note that while the ACA has improved access for those with pre-existing conditions, it has also led to increased premiums that may deter younger, healthier individuals from signing up. There is a consensus that the insurance market needs reform, as many feel the costs are unsustainable and do not reflect the actual healthcare needs of healthy individuals. Additionally, concerns are raised about the low reimbursement rates for providers under ACA plans, which could lead to fewer doctors accepting such insurance. Overall, the conversation highlights the ongoing challenges and complexities of the U.S. healthcare system.
Messages
19,773
Reaction score
10,726
I'm sitting here a little depressed. I need to sign up my wife and I and the cheapest plan is $450/m with a $9000 deductible. We are both super healthy, rarely visit the doctor and were happy with our old catastrophe plans which were about $100/m each.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
All I know is that Obama made it possible for my older daughter, Spawn of Evo, who has Chrons disease and was canceled by her previous insurance and uninsurable to get cheap insurance. His law made it illegal for insurance companies to turn her down. It's not the new plan, but I thank him every day.

Greg have you shopped around for insurance directly from companies?
 
  • Like
Likes Monique and Greg Bernhardt
Evo said:
Greg have you shopped around for insurance directly from companies?
As far as I can tell, the only non obamacare plans you can get are temporary insurance.
 
Greg Bernhardt said:
As far as I can tell, the only non obamacare plans you can get are temporary insurance.
Well, that stinks.
 
Greg Bernhardt said:
I'm sitting here a little depressed. I need to sign up my wife and I and the cheapest plan is $450/m with a $9000 deductible. We are both super healthy, rarely visit the doctor and were happy with our old catastrophe plans which were about $100/m each.
That's $450/m for you both? That's a lot.

One thing you can be happy about: you are super healthy and rarely have to visit the doctor. People like Spawn of Evo don't choose to be chronically ill and it makes sense to spread the costs over society, but that's my socialist view. I pay less than €100/m, or $120/m for mandatory insurance, to give an indication.

Hopefully you can find a better deal, otherwise time will probably bring the cost down.
 
  • Like
Likes Enigman and Medicol
Greg Bernhardt said:
As far as I can tell, the only non obamacare plans you can get are temporary insurance.

My understanding is that you can bypass the exchange (healthcare.gov or a state exchange if you have one) and deal with an insurance company directly. The main difference is you can't get a subsidy if you do that, but if you make too much to be eligible for a subsidy anyway, that's not a problem.

There are requirements that all insurance plans have to meet, whether they're on the exchange or not, e.g. not being able to deny coverage because of a pre-existing condition. I think I remember reading that those requirements eliminated the catastrophic plans with super low premiums.
 
jtbell said:
There are requirements that all insurance plans have to meet, whether they're on the exchange or not, e.g. not being able to deny coverage because of a pre-existing condition. I think I remember reading that those requirements eliminated the catastrophic plans with super low premiums.
That's likely what's hurting me. I bet this is why they are having trouble getting young people to sign up. A healthy person under 30 is going to have a real problem paying $250/m when they never see the doctor.
 
Does your wife's employer not offer insurance Greg?
 
Evo said:
Does your wife's employer not offer insurance Greg?
No because she is technically not full time :(
 
  • #10
Greg Bernhardt said:
No because she is technically not full time :(
I would like to see employers give part time employees the option to benefit from an employer's group policy, even if they pay a larger premium, it's still got to be better than buying an individual policy.
 
  • #11
I haven't signed up. Being Canadian, I already have something even better. :p

If I were a Yank, though, I definitely would.
 
  • Like
Likes Medicol
  • #12
I don't know why many American complain so much about their medicare policy. Most of them already have monthly incomes as high as $5000 on average. Extracting from it only $400-$500/m is not a big deal.
 
  • Like
Likes Lisa!
  • #13
Medicol said:
Extracting from it only $400-$500/m is not a big deal.
You would enjoy paying $500 and not getting anything for it? I haven't been to the doctor in years. It might not be if that were the only monthly expense o_O And the $5000 a month average is before taxes.
 
  • #14
Greg Bernhardt said:
You would enjoy paying $500 and not getting anything for it? I haven't been to the doctor in years. It might not be if that were the only monthly expense o_O And the $5000 a month average is before taxes.
You are getting something for it: insurance.

The idea that you need to spend as much as you pay in a year is a strange one. Then you don't need to insure yourself, if you think you can pay medical bills without problem. A single round of chemotherapy can cost $20,000: you need to pay insurance for seven years to just cover that cost. You might be healthy today, but how about tomorrow? The insurance company needs to cover that risk.

The bill of $225/person/month is a lot in my opinion, but it's well known that medical care in the USA is very expensive (maybe that's where change is needed).

Can you opt for a certain amount of own risk? That will reduce your monthly bill and saves money when you don't need any care.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes Lisa!
  • #15
Monique said:
Then you don't need to insure yourself, if you think you can pay medical bills without problem.
The point of obamacare was to mandate coverage. Either you sign up or pay a penalty. This is a big problem. Many young people are choosing to pay the cheaper penalty.

The thing that gets me is the deductible. The plan I am looking at has $9000 annual. So pretty much unless I get cancer, I'm paying $500/m and out of pocket for everything. To get value I better get in a train wreck.
 
Last edited:
  • #16
Greg Bernhardt said:
You would enjoy paying $500 and not getting anything for it?,,,.
Oh you may become interested in this
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/06...o-consider-investments-in-united-states/?_r=0
That you buy a health package from them is also meant to save your money at a very low interest rate. They also pay your checkup fee at a low percentage. Go with your own country's policy. Life span is in the US also higher than that in many others.
 
  • #17
Monique said:
Hopefully you can find a better deal, otherwise time will probably bring the cost down.

That's what everyone thinks. But Obamacare's little surprise, which was carefully concealed until after the recent elections, is that the premiums for most plans are going up. Merry Christmas and Happy Birthday.

Also, plans are priced in part on your age. Someone 25 years old is not going to pay the same premium as someone 50 years old. As you get older, even if you are healthy, you can expect to see an increase in your premiums. Obamacare may have repealed the laws allowing denial of coverage for preexisting conditions, but it didn't do anything about this.
 
  • Like
Likes mheslep and Medicol
  • #18
Greg Bernhardt said:
The thing that gets me is the deductible. The plan I am looking at has $9000 annual. So pretty much unless I get cancer, I'm paying $500/m and out of pocket for everything.
Gee, you pay $9000 out of pocket before any coverage? Yes, that's ridiculous. Apparently the system needs to go through a serious reform, I'm glad I'm not part of it. You can come to the Netherlands, we have good insurance plans ;)

To get value I better get in a train wreck.
Don't speak of getting value, you don't want to get value for your money when it comes to insurance.
 
  • Like
Likes Orodruin and Medicol
  • #19
SteamKing said:
That's what everyone thinks. But Obamacare's little surprise, which was carefully concealed until after the recent elections, is that the premiums for most plans are going up. Merry Christmas and Happy Birthday.
That's how it goes, I'm working with a lawyer now (again) to find a way that I don't have to go into unemployment, while I pay myself with a government subsidy. It's easy to become vicim of rules that are supposed to be there to help you.
 
  • Like
Likes Medicol
  • #20
Monique said:
You are getting something for it: insurance.

While the ACA mandates that coverage be purchased, there is no similar mandate that physicians or hospitals are required to accept that coverage to pay for your treatment. If the coverage is turned down or not accepted, you still get a bill.

http://americanactionforum.org/insi...ers-are-opting-out-of-obamacare-exchang-plans

Reimbursements to physicians and hospitals, even should they accept the coverage, are very low currently and subject to going lower.
 
  • Like
Likes mheslep and Medicol
  • #21
Why would physicians or hospitals reject coverage? They don't make enough profit from the plan?
 
  • #22
Monique said:
Why would physicians or hospitals reject coverage? They don't make enough profit from the plan?

If the reimbursements from the plans don't cover the cost of coverage, who makes up the difference? Hint: it's not the government.

Private physicians and hospitals must make enough revenue to pay the utility bills, pay the staff, buy supplies and medical equipment, etc. If it costs, for example, $100 to treat a given patient, but you can expect a reimbursement of only $60 for that treatment, how long before that missing $40, multiplied by the number of patients who are treated, adds up to real money?

For every $1.00 paid by private insurance, Medicare pays about $0.80, and most ACA plans pay about $0.60. In fact, the trend is to tie ACA plan reimbursement rates with prevailing Medicaid reimbursement rates, which are rock bottom as it is.

For those of you not from the US, Medicare is the federally-administered healthcare program for those who are 65 and older.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(United_States)

Medicaid is a health care program set up and administered by the individual state governments to care for the indigent or others with low incomes or limited resources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid

The reimbursement rates for physicians and hospitals are set by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, the department inside the Department of Health and Human Services of the federal government which administers Medicare. Various fee schedules for treatment have been set up over the years, but because Medicare is administered by the federal government, these fee schedules and the reimbursements provided are subject to revision by Congress when it comes to drafting the federal budget. In general, over the last decade or so, the trend is to provide smaller reimbursements to doctors and hospitals for their services.

As of 2008, Medicare alone consumed 13% of the federal budget. Over the period 2010-2019, this share is expected to increase to just under 15%.
 
  • #23
SteamKing said:
If the reimbursements from the plans don't cover the cost of coverage, who makes up the difference? Hint: it's not the government.
Does that mean that Greg actually should be paying more to the insurance plan? Why does it work in other countries, but not the USA?
 
  • #24
Greg, have you actually checked with companies like Humana, United Healthcare, Kaiser Permanente, Aetna, Coventry, Blue Cross Blue Shield, etc... I had individual insurance policies with no deductible, included prescription meds and was only $400 a month for the two of us. Of course it was top of the line coverage, you might not need a plan with that much coverage. That was two years ago, so, I would assume the premiums are a bit higher now, but you probably don't need as much coverage as I carried.
 
  • #25
Monique said:
Does that mean that Greg actually should be paying more to the insurance plan? Why does it work in other countries, but not the USA?

Long story short, Greg is already paying more for his insurance plan, to cover the cost of treating those who cannot be denied coverage.

In other countries, like the UK with its NHS, the cost of hospitals and physicians is a budget item, i.e., the government pays for health care. Now the money for these programs can come from only one source: the taxpayer. You have an elaborate national taxation system to collect revenue, in the form of income taxes, fees (like the National Insurance), and a particularly burdensome Value Added Tax system on goods and services, i.e., a tax on consumption.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_Added_Tax_(United_Kingdom)

Because of the nature of the VAT (it is levied in increments at each stage of production), often the true amount of tax is obscured in the price being paid by the consumer.

In the US, there is no national tax system which resembles the VAT, although one has been proposed on occasion. Certain programs, like Medicare and Social Security, are nominally funded thru payroll taxes, but in recent years, the amount collected thru taxes has been exceeded by the amount of benefits paid out. The surpluses which were accumulated in previous years have been borrowed by the federal government, in part to make up for financing its annual budget deficits.

By mandating coverage for all comers, ACA plan rates are necessarily going to reflect that the costs of covering those who cannot pay for insurance or whose insurance coverage does not cover the cost of their treatment will be shifted and proportioned over all the policyholders in that plan.
 
  • Like
Likes Monique
  • #26
Thanks for the explanation, I looked up how that's distributed in the Netherlands (for comparison): 8% of healthcare is financed through the government, 38% through basic insurance fees, 9% through extended insurance fees and 39% through employer contributions. Still hard to compare with your example, but I'm surprised the government percentage is quite low.

SteamKing said:
Long story short, Greg is already paying more for his insurance plan, to cover the cost of treating those who cannot be denied coverage.
I'm curious: is this perceived as a good or a bad thing? Sure, the charges are excessive, but making sure everyone has access to healthcare must be a good thing?
 
  • #27
Monique said:
Thanks for the explanation, I looked up how that's distributed in the Netherlands (for comparison): 8% of healthcare is financed through the government, 38% through basic insurance fees, 9% through extended insurance fees and 39% through employer contributions. Still hard to compare with your example, but I'm surprised the government percentage is quite low.I'm curious: is this perceived as a good or a bad thing? Sure, the charges are excessive, but making sure everyone has access to healthcare must be a good thing?

I don't think anyone is advocating that someone should be denied coverage.

The healthcare financing system in the US before the ACA had many recognized problems, but it is not clear that the provisions of the ACA have addressed or solved these problems, and in fact, almost certainly these provisions have created new problems.

The law itself has been phased in in stages. The current controversy involves those who previously did not have access to health insurance thru their employer, either because they were self-employed and purchased their own policies on the open market, or because they chose not to purchase a plan because they are young and healthy, for example, and thought the money could be spent on other things, or worked only part-time, and were not eligible for the same coverage which was offered to full-time employees. This portion of the population is relatively small.

The next portion of the ACA to be implemented will affect the health insurance plans which are offered by employers to their full-time employees. Employers will have to offer plans with similar coverage that are being offered to individuals, or pay a fine for each of their employees who are not covered. In response, many smaller employers have switched formerly full-time workers to part-time work. Other employers have announced that coverage thru the company would no longer be offered, and the employees would have to shop for plans on one of the health insurance exchanges.

The ACA, for better or worse, is a great dislocation in the one thing which a lot of people were counting on should they get sick and need treatment. Contrary to promises issued by the Administration, health plans and doctors which people liked and depended on were not preserved under the law.
 
  • Like
Likes mheslep and Greg Bernhardt
  • #28
Monique said:
Thanks for the explanation, I looked up how that's distributed in the Netherlands (for comparison): 8% of healthcare is financed through the government, 38% through basic insurance fees, 9% through extended insurance fees and 39% through employer contributions. Still hard to compare with your example, but I'm surprised the government percentage is quite low.

That 8% is probably just the line item in the national budget which covers health costs. The rest is going to come from the population in some form of tax, although it may be designated a 'contribution' or a 'fee' rather than a 'tax'.

In the US, the amount in payroll taxes paid by the employee to fund Social Security and Medicare is supposed to be matched dollar for dollar by the employer. If you are self-employed, you get to personally match your own payroll tax contribution when making your tax withholding payments to the government. At least the IRS (the federal tax agency) has the decency to call this a 'self-employment tax' on the forms.
 
  • #29
Greg Bernhardt said:
The point of obamacare was to mandate coverage. Either you sign up or pay a penalty. This is a big problem. Many young people are choosing to pay the cheaper penalty.

The thing that gets me is the deductible. The plan I am looking at has $9000 annual. So pretty much unless I get cancer, I'm paying $500/m and out of pocket for everything. To get value I better get in a train wreck.
Hi Greg,
I don't have a clue that there might be something here that might be of help, but I'll throw it out:), my wife volunteers to help people with the insurance signup and in tax season ones that qualify can have their taxes done for free.
In Texas,( your state might be different ) look at these links and see if you see anything that helps.

http://www.foundcom.org/get-financially-stable/insure-central-texas/

http://www.foundcom.org/documents/Insure_Central_Texas/Resolving_an_Inconsistency_-_English.pdf

One that she helped today had lost his job, he needed coverage to extend through the years end ( I don't know about next year) married with two children, a zero deductible policy has a government assist grant that covered a little over $400.00 and he paid around $380.00.
In today's economy, as one that has paid insurance to cover a family of six for many years, this sounded pretty good to me.
In all the years of raising my family there were never enough medical bills to exceed the minimum allowable on tax returns (I count my blessings every day):)

Look for insurance marketplace in your state, if that is not what you have already been looking at.

Other countries have higher taxes, but offer everyone complete health coverage, the US of A could step up to first place if everyone would just open their minds (IMO):)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #30
Monique said:
Why would physicians or hospitals reject coverage? They don't make enough profit from the plan?
The large insurance companies negotiate standard fees with physicians and hospitals ahead of time. A doctor who has made such an arrangement with your insurance company is "in network"; when you visit that doctor they treat you and then bill the insurance company for the agreed-upon fee, less any possible copay.

If the doctor is out of network, they have two choices. Either:
1) They bill the insurance company for their usual fee, the insurer pays whatever amount is called for by your contract with insurer, and the doctor bills you for the difference. They are more likely to do this for regular patients and people with good credit ratings. They are also more likely to do this if the practice is large enough to have people on staff who shepherd claims through the insurance company process.
2) They bill you (often requiring payment during your visit). You file a claim with your insurer, and they pay you whatever amount is called for by your contract with them.
When someone says that their coverage was "rejected" by the doctor/hospital, they mean that the provider is going with option #2 above.

None of this is new with Obamacare.
 
Last edited:
  • #31
Jeez, but you guys have it hard! My entire life is paid for by the government (ie: taxpayers :s). I'm on AISH—Assured Income for the Severely Handicapped. It pays me a monthly income to cover the cost of housing, food, utilities, and whatever else I choose to spend it on in the form of an automatic bank deposit. I'm allowed to maintain ownership of my house which I still live in, and vehicle, even though I no longer drive. (Aside from my beer, internet, cat-related expenses, Phillips Lifeline service, delivered meals, and basic cable TV, I don't indulge.) All of my medical bills including ambulance rides (about $250 each), hospital stays, prescription meds and the like are covered. (My oxygen equipment is paid for by Alberta Health Services, a different entity, even though it's legally a prescription drug.) I've had a lot of ambulance trips to the ER for overnight stays (including last Wednesday), at some unknown cost. My two separate 3-week hospitalizations in ICU ran about $2,500 per day. If that were my responsibility, I would have stayed dead the first time.
On the whole, though, I'd rather be able to work for a living.
 
Last edited:
  • #32
SteamKing said:
Private physicians and hospitals must make enough revenue to pay the utility bills, pay the staff, buy supplies and medical equipment, etc. If it costs, for example, $100 to treat a

What hospitals charge, in particular, have little connection unfortunately to what care must actually cost. The primary reason for this is a lack of transparency in pricing. One generally can not shop around costs for some routine medical procedure. Also, hospitals have a monopoly arrangement with many local governments, with regulations in place preventing new hospitals from going into business in an area; i.e. the regulation basis is something like, "is likely to create disruption"
 
  • #33
Greg Bernhardt said:
I'm sitting here a little depressed. I need to sign up my wife and I and the cheapest plan is $450/m with a $9000 deductible. We are both super healthy, rarely visit the doctor and were happy with our old catastrophe plans which were about $100/m each.

Apparently the law now requires that catastrophic-only plans are only available for those under 30. Plugin under 30 and the lowest price I see on e-health is Aetna - $255/mo, $6600 deductible per individual, $13,200 deductible family. But, even the ACA version of "catastrophic" plans include "Well Baby Care" and other things you don't need - also mandated by the law and forcing the cancellation of plans people already had in pocket which did not include what the ACA says it should include.

Above 30 yrs old, and I get about the same price you see for over 30 (my zip code).

The US has traditionally made goods and services available to the middle class by making these things highly affordable, from transportation to housing and even to medical care before the WWII laws. Hopefully another round of reforms can place the focus where it should be.
 
  • #34
Nugatory said:
The large insurance companies negotiate standard fees with physicians and hospitals ahead of time. A doctor who has made such an arrangement with your insurance company is "in network"; when you visit that doctor they treat you and then bill the insurance company for the agreed-upon fee, less any possible copay.

If the doctor is out of network, they have two choices. Either:
1) They bill the insurance company for their usual fee, the insurer pays whatever amount is called for by your contract with insurer, and the doctor bills you for the difference. They are more likely to do this for regular patients and people with good credit ratings. They are also more likely to do this if the practice is large enough to have people on staff who shepherd claims through the insurance company process.
2) They bill you (often requiring payment during your visit). You file a claim with your insurer, and they pay you whatever amount is called for by your contract with them.
When someone says that their coverage was "rejected" by the doctor/hospital, they mean that the provider is going with option #2 above.

None of this is new with Obamacare.
Some policies offer no coverage for 'out of network" providers, unless it is an emergency outside of your coverage area, and then maybe not. But these plans are usually the cheapest, plans that let you see any doctor anywhere usually cost more.
 
  • #35
mheslep said:
Also, hospitals have a monopoly arrangement with many local governments, with regulations in place preventing new hospitals from going into business in an area; i.e. the regulation basis is something like, "is likely to create disruption"

It's a pretty small town or city in the US which has access to only one hospital, clinic, doctor's office, vet practice, witch doctor, holistic healer, kids playing doctor, etc. Usually, such circumstances occur because the particular town is too remote or too sparsely populated to require the services of more than one hospital or clinic, however small it might be.

I would like some examples of this practice, please.

AFAIK, hospitals are not regulated the same as public utilities, cable companies, police and fire departments, or other municipal services. Hospitals are usually regulated and accredited by state departments of health, rather than local governments, and there are a raft of federal regulations which apply as well. Such local monopoly regulations on hospitals are unlikely to withstand legal scrutiny, IMO.

The shortage of physicians willing to practice in remote or under served rural areas is so acute that programs have been set up which provide that if new physicians commit to practice in these areas for a certain period of time, all or part of that physician's student loan debt would be forgiven/repaid.

This is a list of state/federal Loan Repayment/Forgiveness and Scholarship programs:

https://services.aamc.org/fed_loan_...1&CFTOKEN=29841B58-E60F-A638-686BBE40975118D8
 
  • #36
SteamKing said:
I would like some examples of this practice, please.

The rules for new hospitals or medical facilities live under the euphemism of "Health Care Certificate-of-Need (CON) Laws".
From a NIHCR study
...member hospitals initially had mixed views about the benefits of CON but banded together to support the process after realizing it was a valuable tool to block new physician-owned facilities.
http://www.nihcr.org/CON_Laws.html#section8

These laws are administered by government effectiveness boards that are specifically charged with preserving the profits of existing hospitals.
http://www.ij.org/vacon
CON at it again

Competition is the impediment to monopoly practice, but with CON in place upstart competition is ruled out, and we get the like of the "golden handshake" between two large MASS providers.
Hospital Monopolies: The Biggest Driver of Health Costs That Nobody Talks About
More on Hospital Monopolies
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #37
mheslep said:
The rules for new hospitals or medical facilities live under the euphemism of "Health Care Certificate-of-Need (CON) Laws".
From a NIHCR study

http://www.nihcr.org/CON_Laws.html#section8

The key phrase in the quoted excerpt is 'physician-owned hospitals'. Such physician-owned hospitals have been outlawed from expanding under the ACA now anyway, unless of course, they can show they serve a need and request a waiver from the Secretary of HHS.

http://www.cms.gov/Medicare/Fraud-and-Abuse/PhysicianSelfReferral/Physician_Owned_Hospitals.html

Not all hospitals are physician-owned. Some hospitals are set up by various religious denominations, some are set up by state and local governments to serve indigent or low-income patients, and some are set up by charitable foundations.

In any event, the certificates of need are granted by the state regulatory authorities, not local municipal governments.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #38
Evo said:
Some policies offer no coverage for 'out of network" providers, unless it is an emergency outside of your coverage area, and then maybe not.

Yep - "whatever amount is called for by your contract with them" can be zero.
 
  • #39
Monique said:
I'm curious: is this perceived as a good or a bad thing? Sure, the charges are excessive, but making sure everyone has access to healthcare must be a good thing?

I'm lucky to have good health care coverage but I did lose the option for an HMO last year that I've been at for 20+ years (Kaiser). I think Sen. Chuck Schumer has it about right (and I don't think he's right about much else).

http://fusion.net/story/30263/chuck-schumer-obamacare-comments-aca/
“The plight of uninsured Americans and the hardships caused by unfair insurance company practices certainly needed to be addressed,” he added. “But it wasn’t the change we were hired to make. Americans were crying out for an end to the recession, for better wages and more jobs — not for changes in their health care.”
 
  • #40
mheslep said:
But, even the ACA version of "catastrophic" plans include "Well Baby Care" and other things you don't need - also mandated by the law and forcing the cancellation of plans people already had in pocket which did not include what the ACA says it should include...
The US has traditionally made goods and services available to the middle class by making these things highly affordable, from transportation to housing and even to medical care before the WWII laws. Hopefully another round of reforms can place the focus where it should be.

The higher price and lower affordability of the ACA-approved policies is not primarily because they include things you don't need. Accurately estimating what a given population will need is the lifeblood of the insurance industry and they're amazingly good at it; if they weren't they'd go out of business rather quickly. It's a much longer and sadder story... here we go...

What's going on is that for many years the American individual health insurance business worked by selling to people like Greg, the people who can say "We are both super healthy, rarely visit the doctor and were happy with our old catastrophe plans which were about $100/mo each". Cover 1000 people in that category and you'll take in 1.2M$/yr, and pay out maybe a dozen or so five-digit claims. However, if you didn't fall in that category, they wouldn't sell you insurance at all . That's a recipe for very affordable coverage for the low-risk population but no coverage at all for the high-risk population, with the unspoken assumption that one way or another the doctors and hospitals would eat the cost of treating the uninsured. (Medical expenses are the leading cause of bankruptcy in America, ad of course it's the providers who end up holding the bag when the unpaid bills are discharged in a bankruptcy proceeding).

Meanwhile, a completely different dynamic was at work in the group health market where (for example) employers purchased the coverage that they made available to their employees as a benefit. There the insurers were required to accept all comers (it wouldn't be much of an employment benefit otherwise), and the actuarial risks were distributed across the entire employee pool. This meant that the premiums for the super-healty were higher than would be in the individual market, but because the cost was paid by the employer not the individual staying in the pool was still a good deal; and the less healthy could also find coverage This approach has worked well for many years, l - there's nothing in the ACA that changes this part, a substantial fraction of Americans are covered this way, and a fair case can be made that it's the part of the American health system that works best, at least for the people whose jobs give them access to such coverage.

What the ACA has done is bring the economics of group coverage to the individual market. The insurance companies are required to cover everyone, and the stick of the individual mandate replaces the carrot of the employer contribution to keep the healthy as well as the unhealthy in the pool. Costs do go up for the super-healthy (at least during their youth - hit your fifties and the pre-ACA individual market isn't such an attractive place)... and as I said at the beginning of this long story, that's likely what you and Greg are seeing.

I expect several things to happen over time (if the supreme court and/or a republican legislature doesn't gut the whole thing first):
- Employers will less often buy health coverage as a benefit for their employees, as most employees will find if they look at the costs that they'd rather take the dollars and buy their own insurance. This will be a good thing, as it removes a number of serious economic distortions and makes it easier for people to switch jobs without worrying about losing their coverage.
- The group insurers have proven themselves to be very effective at controlling costs while maintaining a decent level of coverage. That's to be expected; competition limits what they can charge to cover a given group so their profitably depends on the cost of servicing that group. The experience of other countries that have chosen to provide mandated coverage through private insurers suggests that the total costs will come down and efficiency will climb.
 
  • Like
Likes mheslep
  • #41
SteamKing said:
The key phrase in the quoted excerpt is 'physician-owned hospitals'.
Physician-owned is particular only to the source of competition in that example; the CON laws can block new hospitals owned by physicians, Donald Trump, or my granny. In other words, any would innovator, like a SouthWest Airlines of Hospitals, that comes along and finds away to cut prices in half can forget about it in the era of CON laws.

Such physician-owned hospitals have been outlawed from expanding under the ACA now anyway, unless of course, they can show they serve a need and request a waiver from the Secretary of HHS.
Do you believe such is a good thing? Who would have an interest in including such a restriction in the ACA?
 
  • #42
mheslep said:
Physician-owned is particular only to the source of competition in that example; the CON laws can block new hospitals owned by physicians, Donald Trump, or my granny. In other words, any would innovator, like a SouthWest Airlines of Hospitals, that comes along and finds away to cut prices in half can forget about it in the era of CON laws.

In order to open any hospital, you definitely need the CON from the state. But like a lot of regulatory action, I think that this process is more complicated than just a group of local politicos deciding which applications to blackball. After all, a hospital can bring a lot of good jobs to a community, the kind of thing which looks good on a politician's resume at election time.

Do you believe such is a good thing? Who would have an interest in including such a restriction in the ACA?

I honestly don't know. This and many other provisions in the law defy explanation. It's almost like Congress went out of its way to draft a shoddy piece of legislation, which no one read or understood before voting on it. ;)
 
  • #43
We seem to be going off track here, opening hospitals has nothing to do with insurance prices for individuals. Please get back to the Op.
 
  • #44
I work somewhere where we hear all about obamacare. People seem to be paying high prices, but in the end are getting an insurance equal to Medicaid.

My job also offers full time and part time insurance. :) huge plus! I've never had to look into new insurance due to living at home and just taking the cheapest plan offered to me since I hardly ever go to a doctor.
 
  • #45
Nugatory said:
The large insurance companies negotiate standard fees with physicians and hospitals ahead of time. A doctor who has made such an arrangement with your insurance company is "in network"; ...

None of this is new with Obamacare.
Yes the concept of in and out of network is not new. The definition of what is now "in-network" by the insurers is new, based on the advent of the ACA exchanges. Networks are shrinking significantly, a significant reason why the "keep you doctor" promise was broken for many. Losing in-network access to a given doctor, a major hospital, or perhaps the only hospital nearby in a rural area is a downside of the ACA. The upside of this effect is that the more narrow networks should increase competition on price, thereby bringing prices down. For instance, insurers might now decide to exclude the expensive big-campus teaching hospital that it previously had in-network for years. See, e.g. the UCLA Cedars-Sinai hospital, now excluded from some insurance plans in CA.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapot...our-choice-of-doctors-and-thats-a-good-thing/
 
  • #46
Such physician-owned hospitals have been outlawed from expanding under the ACA now anyway, unless of course, they can show they serve a need and request a waiver from the Secretary of HHS.

mheslep said:
Do you believe such is a good thing? Who would have an interest in including such a restriction in the ACA?

It would be a bad thing if it did that, but that's not what the ACA does. It couldn't even if someone wanted it to; it should be obvious that the American federal government has very little power to limit hospital construction and expansion.

[WARNING - What follows is a huge oversimplification. We're talking about a quarter-century of arcane legislation spawned by a cat-and-mouse game between the regulators and the people trying to game the system. To get the whole story, you have to google for "medicare stark act" (it's named after representative Peter Stark, who introduced the legislation 25 years ago) and read the history starting from 1989 when the law in question was passed.]

There is an obvious conflict of interest when a physician can refer patients for highly profitable treatments at a hospital that the physician owns; no private company would tolerate that sort of arrangement between its suppliers. So the Stark act, passed in 1989 and taking effect in 1992, said that Medicare and Medicaid won't automatically pick up the bills from these hospitals. However, under certain circumstances existing physician-owned hospitals were grandfathered in so could continue to bill the government for such referrals; that created a loophole, as the grandfathered businesses were free to increase their billings by building new capacity to increase their throughput. The ACA closed this loophole by saying that new capacity at these grandfathered businesses would not also be grandfathered in.

So under this part of the law no one is stopping anyone from building or expanding any hospital or other medical facility. They're just saying that you can't take it for granted that the government will pay for any treatments delivered by this new capacity and that are recommended by the hospital owner.
 
Last edited:
  • #47
mheslep said:
Yes the concept of in and out of network is not new. The definition of what is now "in-network" by the insurers is new, based on the advent of the ACA exchanges. Networks are shrinking significantly, a significant reason why the "keep you doctor" promise was broken for many.

Are they shrinking? That may depend on where you live. I've found that the network available to me under the various ACA policies that I'm looking at includes all of the providers that were available to me under the employer group plan that I'm currently covered (under COBRA) by, and the costs are a bit better than what I'm paying under COBRA.
 
  • #48
Evo said:
All I know is that Obama made it possible for my older daughter, Spawn of Evo, who has Chrons disease and was canceled by her previous insurance and uninsurable to get cheap insurance. His law made it illegal for insurance companies to turn her down. It's not the new plan, but I thank him every day.

My daughter also has a chronic illness (an autoimmune disease). Obamacare has made a huge difference in her life path.

It's hard to believe people think it's OK that insurance companies should make policies that wreck the lives of people who are ill through no fault of their own. I'm not talking about making decisions on million-dollar treatments that extend life a few months. I mean simple, affordable treatment that can transform someone from medically disabled into a tax-paying, employed person. This is considered "normal" in all developed countries.

The system was screwed up for so long, and both both parties had ample time to fix it. Obamacare may need some fine-tuning but I'm happy it's the law of the land now.
 
  • Like
Likes Danger, Monique, dlgoff and 1 other person
  • #49
It's great that Evo and Lisab are well served by the ACA, but there were others suffering from chronic illnesses before the ACA who had in place insurance policies and physician networks which satisfactorily provided treatment at a price which these patients could afford. After the ACA was signed into law, the health care arrangements of these patients were thrown into turmoil, as their physicians and specialists were not part of the available ACA compliant health networks, or their premiums rose to unaffordable levels. If the Administration had been serious about keeping its promise that you could keep your doctor/insurance plan if you liked it after the ACA became law, there would be a lot more acceptance of the law than there is currently.

The problem with the ACA is that it is considered a "signature" piece of legislation by the Democrats, a part of Obama's presidential legacy, and that any "fine-tuning", "revisions", "amendments", etc., imply that the law as written was flawed. Given the length of the original bill and the massive amount of regulation stemming from its implementation, it is not surprising that there are problems. There was no compromise entertained during the legislative process, which was why this bill did not receive the bipartisan support it should have garnered to be accepted by a majority of the population at large.

Failing to realize that changes were required to the law (or stubbornly refusing to do so, take your pick) as it has been partially implemented to date was a big reason why the recent election results were so dismal for the president and his allies in congress.
 
  • #50
Greg Bernhardt said:
I need to sign up my wife and I ...
How does it work for married couples? Can you apply individually? Like IRS tax; married but filing separate tax returns?
 
Back
Top