Are drug induced experiences real?

[Martini]

Would you say the things a person perceives on a drug like LSD are "real"?

 

[WaveJumper]

Would you say the things a person perceives on a drug like LSD are "real"?

If they are tangible, i'd say yes, they seem to be very real. I've read of two separate accounts of such cases, but they were on DMT and you have to take the word of psychonauts/tryptonauts for it.

 

[Martini]

What if it's a hallucination?
That hallucination doesn't exist for most people, but it does for the person tripping.

 

[Evo]

First, this doesn't belong in the philosophy forum.

Second, if the "experience" was drug induced, no, it's not real. If you want to argue that the "hallucination" was real, that's altogether different, it does not make what you experienced in the hallucination real.

 

[madness]

LSD gives you a lot more than hallucinations. It can make you aware of all the things that are constantly going on in your mind but which are usually blocked out (subconscious). I think some of the things you experience are real and some are not. For example, if you see a pink elephant, it probably isn't real.

 

[Sorry!]

One time I was on shrooms and there were leprechauns chasing me. They were in the clouds jumping from cloud to cloud. I was actually scared out of my mind. I'm sure they weren't real. I hope they weren't cause these things looked rediculously evil. As well for some reason when I had looked up at the clouds to see them it was like I could zoom in on them as if it was on camera... ah the good ole' days :P

 

[madness]

One thing I felt very strongly on LSD is that everything you experience is constructed in your mind. Everything from time to space to self seemed to be something I imposed on the world. So in a sense when you see objects in a distorted sense on LSD they are no less real than when you see them sober - in either case they are a mental construction.

 

[drankin]

Everything a person experiences is real. If it weren't, you wouldn't have the experience.

If "realness" required outside validation then most things a person experiences are not real because they cannot be witnessed by an outside observer.

Your doctor would say, "I don't feel that sore stomach you are talking about, don't worry, it's must not real".

 

[Evo]

Everything a person experiences is real. If it weren't, you wouldn't have the experience.

If "realness" required outside validation then most things a person experiences are not real because they cannot be witnessed by an outside observer.

Your doctor would say, "I don't feel that sore stomach you are talking about, don't worry, it's must not real".

That is not a good example. If you have a physical problem internally, then it's real, it doesn't matter that someone else can't feel your pain. If you don't have a physical problem, and it's imagined, then it's not physically real.

In order to have any discussion "real" needs to be defined. Real as in the "physical" world, or as in a brain function, in which case I will move this to medical science and it can be discussed under the scientific guidelines.

 

[Sorry!]

That is not a good example. If you have a physical problem internally, then it's real, it doesn't matter that someone else can't feel your pain. If you don't have a physical problem, and it's imagined, then it's not physically real.

In order to have any discussion "real" needs to be defined. Real as in the "physical" world, or as in a brain function, in which case I will move this to medical science and it can be discussed under the scientific guidelines.

All I got out of your post was 'I don't believe what you said is a good example because I don't believe it.'

No one else can jump inside you and perceive using your sensory devices.

 

[Evo]

All I got out of your post was 'I don't believe what you said is a good example because I don't believe it.'

No one else can jump inside you and perceive using your sensory devices.

Are you saying if someone has a cancerous tumor that it's not real until it's found? A tumor is physically real.

This is in medical sciences now. We will stick to medical definitions of drug induced hallucinations from this point on.

 

[drankin]

That is not a good example. If you have a physical problem internally, then it's real, it doesn't matter that someone else can't feel your pain. If you don't have a physical problem, and it's imagined, then it's not physically real.

In order to have any discussion "real" needs to be defined. Real as in the "physical" world, or as in a brain function, in which case I will move this to medical science and it can be discussed under the scientific guidelines.

Are ones emotions real? The same applies to a drug experience. Everything experienced is biochemical. I'm not a doctor but we all do know that it all happens in the brain. Neorons firing, hormones, chemical reactions. Drug experiences change how these systems work. From caffiene to heroin. The experiences are none-the-less real for the individual whether they can be witnessed by an outside observer or not.

I'm became very familiar with LSD 20+ years ago. Out of approx 60 experiences I never saw something that wasn't there, I never had a hallucination. Things appeared distorted at times, which was amusing, but that's about it.

What I did experience that could be witnessed by an outside observer was an incredibly enhanced physical dexterity and an increased awareness of my immediate environment. This is what really fascinated me. At the time the use was more for a "religious" experience than recreational.

Then I grew up.

 

[Martini]

Well how about some one with a mental disorder who has hallucinations or voices.
What they are feeling is very, very real to them.

On a drug like lsd, you can interact with your hallucinations, so they seem real at the time.

 

[Sorry!]

Are you saying if someone has a cancerous tumor that it's not real until it's found? A tumor is physically real.

This is in medical sciences now. We will stick to medical definitions of drug induced hallucinations from this point on.

Pseudo Tumor Cerebra

And that's without drugs there also exists people who miraculously get pregnant, when they really aren't etc. etc.

Of course the fact that you're describing it as a cancerous tumor implies that it's already been discovered. How would I know I have a cancerous tumor exactly? Does it feel different?

 

[Evo]

Pseudo Tumor Cerebra

And that's without drugs there also exists people who miraculously get pregnant, when they really aren't etc. etc.

Of course the fact that you're describing it as a cancerous tumor implies that it's already been discovered. How would I know I have a cancerous tumor exactly? Does it feel different?

None of this makes sense. Pseudotumor Cerebri is a physical problem.

People can imagine they're pregnant, but please post a link to someone that imagined they were pregnant and actually gave birth to a real baby.

Are you saying cancerous tumors don't exist until they are diagnosed?

Another nonsense post and you're going to get an infraction, just a warning.

 

[Martini]

Well, it's not that they don't exist, it's just that you don't know.
It's like going to someone's house when they aren't home. You knock on the door, they don't awnser, so you assume that they are in the shower or sleeping. There is no way that you know whether they are there or not.

 

[Evo]

Well, it's not that they don't exist, it's just that you don't know.
It's like going to someone's house when they aren't home. You knock on the door, they don't awnser, so you assume that they are in the shower or sleeping. There is no way that you know whether they are there or not.

The point is that the tumor *IS* there and not imagninary. My response was to this

Your doctor would say, "I don't feel that sore stomach you are talking about, don't worry, it's must not real".

If his stomach is sore due to a physical illness, it's not imaginary.

If this thread isn't going to discuss the medical causes of drug induced illusions, then it will be closed.

 

[madness]

This thread seems to have gone off topic. I believe that we create a mental world for ourselves whether we are on drugs or not. When we take drugs our mental world temporarily changes. Even when we aren't on drugs many things we see aren't real - our brain interprets our vision and makes up most of what we see into a coherent picture. There are many optical illusions which show how this. Is it any less real to hear a colour rather than see it?

 

[madness]

This thread is now in the philosophy forum so I don't see why it should be about "the medical causes of drug induced illusions". In fact by calling them illusions you have presupposed the answer to the whole question.

 

[madness]

My mistake I didn't realized it was moved here. I think the original question was much more suited to the philosophy forum.

 

[Evo]

My mistake I didn't realized it was moved here. I think the original question was much more suited to the philosophy forum.

No, it does not meet the criteria. Most people that post in philosophy have never read the guidelines.

 

[madness]

Which criteria does it not meet?

 

[Martini]

Well, I was looking for a more philosophical based awnser.
Medically, no drug induced experiences are not real.
But does reality even relate to medicine?

 

[Evo]

Which criteria does it not meet?

It meets none. Please read the guidelines, I'm not posting them here in this thread. The OP failed to meet even the most basic criteria for a philosophical discussion.

explicitly defining key terms;
* justifying why this is a valid issue or problem in the first place;
* explicitly stating starting premises or assumptions;
* providing logical or empirical support for such premises or assumptions;
* making subtle logical steps more explicit;
* summarizing previous arguments made on the topic and explaining how they are relevant to your argument;
* etc.

Just for starters. If you'd like, I can move this back to philosophy and lock it.

 

[Martini]

Please don't lock it.
Every thread I start gets controversial, and then locked.

I want to actually discuss this one.

 

[kldickson]

Philosophy shouldn't even touch drug-based experiences. These only take place because of pharmacological interference with normal brain function.

What you perceive during a hallucination is not, in fact, real; the hallucination does occur in that you are experiencing a hallucination, but for example, if you see a pink elephant, that doesn't mean it exists.

Minds have a nasty way of playing tricks on people if they're chemically altered.

 

[Martini]

Define reality?
Is there a reality outside of your own mind?

Also, would you say hallucinations caused by a mental illness are fake?

 

[kldickson]

My specific area of study is in neuroscience.

The question of reality, I find, is often best addressed when undertaken by scientific inquiry - objective, empirical proof replicated in a series of experiments by informed professionals.

Hallucinations caused by a mental illness are just as fake as hallucinations not caused by mental illness. The defining characteristic is that the content of the hallucinations does not exist.

 

[kldickson]

Have you read scientific studies of schizophrenia?

 

[kldickson]

Looking at your post history, I see you are not quite conversant in basic philosophy, and I can't say whether or not you're conversant in any of the basic sciences. What level of education are you at?