Are electrons and protons equal in attraction?

[nitsuj]

Do electrons make "containers of space" for the junk inside the atom to exist?

 

[alxm]

That's a pretty vague or ill-defined question. I'm not sure what you mean.

If you mean the electrons in an atom are 'containing' the nucleus, keeping the protons and neutrons from flying apart, then that's not true. The strong nuclear force is doing that.
The nucleons would be held together whether or not the electrons were there.

The electrons, on the other hand, are where they are because of the electrical charge of the nucleus. They form a 'cloud' of charge density surrounding the nucleus, so
there's no real definition of what the radius of the atom is, or what the radius of the nucleus is. But the 'size' of the nucleus (in terms of how far apart the nucleons are from each other and so on)
is about 1/100,000 the 'size' of the atom (in terms of the approximate size of the electron 'cloud'). These two things are largely unrelated; if the nucleus was 1/10 the size or 10x the size, the
electrons would behave almost exactly the same way.

 

[A. Neumaier]

Do electrons make "containers of space" for the junk inside the atom to exist?

Perhaps your question is related to the entry ''Does an atom mostly consist of empty space?'' in Chapter A6 of my theoretical physics FAQ at http://arnold-neumaier.at/ph...faq.html#touch

 

[nitsuj]

Yea that was vague.

How about, do the nuetron and/or proton (or their "components", excluding force ones) ever not have an electron "orbiting" it?

 

[Drakkith]

Yea that was vague.

How about, do the nuetron and/or proton (or their "components", excluding force ones) ever not have an electron "orbiting" it?

Sure. It is relatively easy to remove the electrons from an atom. Simply heating something up enough will do the trick. Although it needs to be at tens of thousands or higher temperature. Also, look at Alpha Particles. They are simply Helium nuclei that have been ejected from a radioative source. They don't have any electrons around them once they are rejected.

 

[nitsuj]

What happens to them after they're ejected?

 

[Drakkith]

What happens to them after there ejected?

They fly away, and unless they are in space, then they will most likely hit other matter, bounce around a bit, and eventually slow down enough to capture some electrons and turn into a Helium atom.

 

[nitsuj]

Can they be slowed down and collected without electrons?

 

[Drakkith]

Can they be slowed down and collected?

Sure. Since an alpha particle is made up of positively charged protons and neutral...neutrons...(heh), they are highly positively charged and you can easily contain them in a magnetic/electric field if you know what you are doing.

 

[nitsuj]

So the magenetic field does the same thing as the electron? In the sense of "stoping" it from moving?

 

[Drakkith]

So the magenetic field does the same thing as the electron? In the sense of "stoping" it from moving?

What do you mean by doing the same thing as the electrons?

 

[nitsuj]

It seems without an electron they move around alot, and you said they could be collected in a magenetic field.

 

[Drakkith]

It seems without an electron they move around alot, and you said they could be collected in a magenetic field.

The movement of the alpha particle has nothing to do with electrons. It is simply a result of being ejected from the nucleus of an atom. Since it is a charged particle, an appropriate magnetic field can contain it.

The only thing having electrons does is to give an atom a charge or make it neutral. Most atoms have the same number of electrons as they do protons, making most atoms neutral in charge since the electrons and protons cancel each others charges out. If you add an extra electron, then the atom has a net negative charge, while removing electrons causes and atom to have a net postive charge.

I'm sure it looks like I've said electrons have almost no use, but that is the furthest thing from the truth. The way electrons orbit a nucleus and how they interact with other atoms defines how matter behaves in nearly every way.

 

[nitsuj]

Is it to loose to say electrons make a "container" proctecing the necleus from electromagnetic force. Specificaly from creating the force resulting from an imbalance, which as you said does happen?

Asking it differently, is it the proton that "wants" the electron?

 

[Drakkith]

Is it to loose to say electrons make a "container" proctecing the necleus from electromagnetic force. Specificaly from creating the force resulting from an imbalance, which as you said does happen?

Asking it differently, is it the proton that "wants" the electron?

Both are attracted to each other. Using your analogy, you COULD think of the electrons as acting like a "box" that shields the positive electric force...but it's not really correct.

What actually happens is that BOTH the electrons and the protons feel forces from electromagnetic sources, but since they have OPPOSITE reactions to the force, they cancel each other out.

 

[nitsuj]

Ah I see, thanks for letting setting me straight on that. :) One last thing, is the "Canceling out" a force too, in that the electron(s) and neclues attact each other.

 

[Drakkith]

Ah I see, thanks for letting setting me straight on that. :) One last thing, is the "Canceling out" a force too, in that the electron(s) and neclues attact each other.

The electrons are attracted to the protons in the nucleus. When you introduce an external magnetic or electric field, both the protons and electrons experience the same magnitude of force from it, but in opposite directions. Since you have one part of the atom being pulled and the other part being pushed the NET force on the atom is zero. The canceling out is merely that, not a force in and of itself.