Are heat radiation and absorption symmetric?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the symmetry of heat radiation and absorption, particularly in the context of clothing color choices on hot days. Participants explore whether the processes of absorption and emission of heat are symmetric and if physical processes in general exhibit symmetry. The conversation includes theoretical considerations and practical implications related to thermodynamics and clothing materials.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that the processes of heat absorption and radiation are symmetric in terms of emissivity and absorptivity coefficients, which are functions of wavelength and range from 0 to 1.
  • Others contend that while the coefficients may be symmetric, the practical implications differ, as a black shirt will generally make a person hotter in sunlight due to higher absorption of thermal radiation.
  • It is noted that symmetry in this context assumes thermodynamic equilibrium, but not all processes are symmetric, especially before reaching equilibrium.
  • One participant highlights that while a black stone and a white stone may emit the same amount of energy as they absorb at equilibrium, their temperatures will differ, with the black stone reaching a higher temperature.
  • Additional factors, such as the fit of clothing and the depth of radiation penetration, are mentioned as influencing the effectiveness of clothing color in hot climates.
  • A reference is provided to a study discussing why Bedouins wear black robes in hot deserts, suggesting that cultural practices may also inform the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the symmetry of heat radiation and absorption, with some agreeing on the theoretical symmetry of coefficients while others emphasize practical differences in outcomes. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the general symmetry of physical processes.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include assumptions about thermodynamic equilibrium and the specific conditions under which the discussion applies, such as clothing fit and environmental factors affecting heat transfer.

Pythagorian
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
A friend of mine heard a popular science show on the radio. A caller asked what is better to wear on a hot day, white clothes or black clothes. The answer given was that it did not matter because although black absorbs more readily it also radiates it more readily. My friend said of course that is true, because these things should be symmetric.

My thoughts were that although I do not know about rates of heat radiation, it does not seem to me that processes must be symmetric. For instance, in thermodynamics, entropy always increases, which does not seem symmetric to me.

My question has two parts
  • In this specific case, are the two processes symmetric?
  • In general, are physical processes symmetric?
 
Science news on Phys.org
You're not going to get any answers by posting this in the New Member Introductions thread.
 
Borg said:
You're not going to get any answers by posting this in the New Member Introductions thread.

Thanks
 
They are symmetric in a certain sense; however, not in the way that the radio program suggests. They are just wrong. A black shirt will generally make you hotter, if you are out in the sunlight.

So, in what sense are they symmetric? The emissivity and absorptivity coefficients are the same. The coefficients are functions of wavelength (or frequency) with value between 0 and 1. The thermal emission and absorption are both reduced by this same factor. So, a very shiny material will have a coefficient of close to 1 for visible wavelengths, so it will absorb only a small fraction of the incoming light (and reflect the rest). It will also emit a small fraction of what a black shirt does. A black shirt will absorb most of the incoming light, but will also emit close to a black body spectrum. (Look that up). But the Sun puts out way more thermal radiation than your shirt, even when far away, so decreasing the radiation transfer of the Sun and your shirt by the same fraction will decrease the overall temperature of the shirt.
 
In this sense of symmety - i.e., heat absorbed = heat radiated, the situations are indeed symmetric, under certain assumptions (thermodynamic equilibrium).
Not all processes need to be symmetric, though. For example, before reaching equilibrium, and object will emit/absorb more radiation than it absorbs/emits.

However, symmetry does not mean the situations in this case are equivalent. While a black stone and a white stone left on the sun will end up emitting the same amount of energy as each of them absorbs, these won't be the same amounts for both stones. The black stone will reach higher equilibrium temperature (the amount of emitted radiation depends on temperature) than the white one.

This would suggest that wearing black is disadvantageous in hot climates. But there are more factors at play. For example, in loose-fitting clothes (think Bedouin robes), where the material does not touch the skin directly, the absorbed heat can be reradiated without much conduction.
Additionally, white material allows deeper penetration of radiation, which offsets its higher reflectivity.

Khashishi said:
A black shirt will generally make you hotter, if you are out in the sunlight.
However, see here:
Why do Bedouins wear black robes in hot deserts?
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v283/n5745/pdf/283373a0.pdf
(paywalled)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
3K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
12K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
3K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
18K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K