Are Older Grad Students and PhDs Successful in Physics Programs?

[ParticleGrl]

Einstein was in his mid-fifties when his work on the EPR paradox was published - he was on the wrong side, but this was a seminal paper.

But of course, Einstein held his first academic position before he was 30. Many (perhaps even most) scientists will continue to produce well into their 50s- if given the chance.

 

[ParticleGrl]

My research advisor is on the hiring committee, and we were talking about the process. It seems like the absolute biggest factor in who they offer the job to is their performance on their two talks.

This is clearly wrong- before jobs were offered a short list was made. The biggest factors whittled a list down from dozens of candidates to 4 or 5 for the short list. The job talk was more-or-less the tie breaker for the short list.

Granted, there were no 50 year olds being interviewed, but for the spread of ages we did have, I saw no evidence that it played any role at all.

Were there 40 years olds? 45 year olds?

In fact, the first one who was offered a job got his B.S. in 1997, which would put him at around what, 35 years old? He blew the 30 year old candidate out of the water.

35 is around the average age of (lucky) people's first faculty offer. If you get your B.S. around 22, phd between 28-30 and then do several years of postdocs, you'll be 35 or so when you make the faculty rounds. 35 is not old in this context, 30 is young. Also, having been blown out of the water, the 30 year old candidate is probably looking at another 3 year postdoc, thus pushing him toward the 6 years or so of postdoc.

 

[Jack21222]

This is clearly wrong- before jobs were offered a short list was made. The biggest factors whittled a list down from dozens of candidates to 4 or 5 for the short list. The job talk was more-or-less the tie breaker for the short list.

I concede this point, however:

35 is around the average age of (lucky) people's first faculty offer. If you get your B.S. around 22, phd between 28-30 and then do several years of postdocs, you'll be 35 or so when you make the faculty rounds. 35 is not old in this context, 30 is young. Also, having been blown out of the water, the 30 year old candidate is probably looking at another 3 year postdoc, thus pushing him toward the 6 years or so of postdoc.

You're making a HUGE assumption about this guy's CV which is false. The 35 year old got his Ph.D. in 2009 after taking 4 years off to teach community college. He did NOT do several years of postdocs. I'm looking at his CV right now.

Again, what you're saying might be perfectly true to get a position at a big research university, or even a medium one... but for a liberal arts school with a small physics department (at least the one I go to), the requirements you're talking about just don't exist. As long as you have other positive qualities above and beyond the other candidates, age won't really come into play.

 

[ParticleGrl]

You're making a HUGE assumption about this guy's CV which is false. The 35 year old got his Ph.D. in 2009 after taking 4 years off to teach community college. He did NOT do several years of postdocs. I'm looking at his CV right now.

Then he did his 'postdoc' period before he actually finished his degree, which happens. Postdoc is a general term for additional training beyond the phd, and for people who want to teach at liberal arts colleges, it is not uncommon for that additional training to be as lecturers on short term contracts at universities or community colleges. At some research institutions, the 'postdoc' period manifests itself as a student delaying graduation for 2 or 3 years to boost their number of publications. The point is that to be competitive you need several years experience after the phd. And you need to be young enough that people aren't worried about your productivity beginning to decline.

A 35 year old getting a faculty offer is close to the norm. What would be surprising would be several applicants in their mid 40s making the short list, and several candidates in their late 20s.

 

[erok81]

If you aren't planning on teaching is the outlook as bleak? Seems so far if you are over 30, don't get a PhD. You'll be almost worse off than no degree at all.

 

[DrummingAtom]

If you aren't planning on teaching is the outlook as bleak? Seems so far if you are over 30, don't get a PhD. You'll be almost worse off than no degree at all.

Lol.. is that sarcasm?

 

[QuarkCharmer]

I hope that's sarcasm.

 

[Disinterred]

I think Weierstrass came up with his best ideas in his mid 40's? I could be wrong though.

 

[Latecomer]

I appreciate all of the info here; that's why I've lurked here for years. Hopefully, soon I'll actually be able to contribute.
I see myself more in a national lab setting than anything. Would that make things easier or is it pretty much the same story?
Even though physics is my dream, I wonder if my decade of electrical construction would be considered relevant to the engineering field; thus nullifying the age situation a bit.

 

[erok81]

Lol.. is that sarcasm?

I hope that's sarcasm.

Yeah, sorry. I edited my post.

I know academia is probably the worst career route to plan your life around. Thankfully I have zero plans to go that route so a PhD won't be wasted. (old man with PhD that is)

 

[Jack21222]

Then he did his 'postdoc' period before he actually finished his degree, which happens. Postdoc is a general term for additional training beyond the phd, and for people who want to teach at liberal arts colleges, it is not uncommon for that additional training to be as lecturers on short term contracts at universities or community colleges. At some research institutions, the 'postdoc' period manifests itself as a student delaying graduation for 2 or 3 years to boost their number of publications. The point is that to be competitive you need several years experience after the phd. And you need to be young enough that people aren't worried about your productivity beginning to decline.

A 35 year old getting a faculty offer is close to the norm. What would be surprising would be several applicants in their mid 40s making the short list, and several candidates in their late 20s.

I guess I'll let you know how my personal story goes in about 8 years then. I still have 2 semesters of undergrad left, and I'm 28 years old. I hope to have a Ph.D by age 35, and for now, my "Plan A" is to get a tenure-track professor position by age 40. I know it will be difficult, so I do have plans B, C and D as backups, but I hope to be one of the surprising ones who makes it despite a late start.

 

[QuarkCharmer]

I guess I'll let you know how my personal story goes in about 8 years then. I still have 2 semesters of undergrad left, and I'm 28 years old. I hope to have a Ph.D by age 35, and for now, my "Plan A" is to get a tenure-track professor position by age 40. I know it will be difficult, so I do have plans B, C and D as backups, but I hope to be one of the surprising ones who makes it despite a late start.

We sir are in exactly the same boat, age and all.

 

[Ryker]

I guess I'll let you know how my personal story goes in about 8 years then. I still have 2 semesters of undergrad left, and I'm 28 years old. I hope to have a Ph.D by age 35, and for now, my "Plan A" is to get a tenure-track professor position by age 40. I know it will be difficult, so I do have plans B, C and D as backups, but I hope to be one of the surprising ones who makes it despite a late start.

We sir are in exactly the same boat, age and all.

Let's make a club then. We can call it "In with the old, out with the young"

 

[ParticleGrl]

I guess I'll let you know how my personal story goes in about 8 years then. I still have 2 semesters of undergrad left, and I'm 28 years old. I hope to have a Ph.D by age 35, and for now, my "Plan A" is to get a tenure-track professor position by age 40. I know it will be difficult, so I do have plans B, C and D as backups, but I hope to be one of the surprising ones who makes it despite a late start.

Best of luck. The strongest advice I can give is go to a top 5 school for the phd. Overall, phds from top 5 schools have a 1/4 chance of snagging a tenure track faculty position somewhere. As you move lower in ranking, the odds drop off rather quickly.

Edit: Also, don't do a theory phd.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Overall, phds from top 5 schools have a 1/4 chance of snagging a tenure track faculty position somewhere. As you move lower in ranking, the odds drop off rather quickly.

I don't believe that.

I looked at the last 25 HEP theory faculty hires. Yes, Harvard led the pack, with 4 (3 of whom had the same advisor, who is no longer at Harvard). MIT? Zero. Berkeley? Zero. Caltech? Zero. Chicago? Zero.

Princeton got 1. Stanford got 2, but they graduated a decade apart.

Some schools that got at least 1: Minnesota. Florida State. Michigan State.

It's really not about the pedigree any more. There are really excellent faculty at state schools.

 

[DrummingAtom]

Let's make a club then. We can call it "In with the old, out with the young"

Lol. Count me in too.

 

[ParticleGrl]

State schools have had good faculty for decades- after all most of them came out of top schools. The last 25 hires isn't that big a sample- its probably 2 or three years of hiring? A lot of good schools won't graduate many people in the required window, which will bias your sample.

I suggest looking at the data from the rumor Mill that Erich Poppitz put together. It runs '94 to present, and I think supports my claim pretty well.

 

[QuarkCharmer]

Suppose you can't get tenure anywhere, I would like to hope that you can still lead a productive life teaching at a college or in the private sector?

I basically just want to teach physics, but tenure is always a plus (and yes I am aware of the emphasis put on research etc).

 

[twofish-quant]

I know it will be difficult, so I do have plans B, C and D as backups, but I hope to be one of the surprising ones who makes it despite a late start.

I'm already on plan Q or R. Either I make a ton of money and then in five years or so, I work as an unpaid research assistant at some random school that's willing to take me, or else I snag an adjunct professorship in mathematical finance in which I can do astrophysics on the side.

 

[Vanadium 50]

If you don't get tenure, you're fired. (Technically, your contract is not renewed).

There are non-tenure track teaching positions. They pay poorly, there is no job security, and you might not get hired until the week before the term starts.

 

[Pyrrhus]

wow, a professorship is so difficult. I am one of those planning to give it a try for a professorship (in Economics, Industrial Eng, OR, or Civil Eng.). Probably, I will try in 2012-2013, but I'll consider private sector, too. No point in putting all my eggs in one basket.

 

[Geezer]

There are non-tenure track teaching positions. They pay poorly, there is no job security, and you might not get hired until the week before the term starts.

In general, yes, this is true. However, my husband is officially an adjunct--he stayed put so I could do my PhD program. Unlike most low-level adjunct positions, his does come with benefits (e.g. health insurance and pension plan). It doesn't pay nearly as well as a full prof gig--only about $72K/year--but $72K/year isn't exactly minimum wage.

ETA: My husband teaches one course per term; the rest of the time, he does research. Again, he has an atypical arrangement, but it could be way worse.

 

[Geezer]

wow, a professorship is so difficult. I am one of those planning to give it a try for a professorship (in Economics, Industrial Eng, OR, or Civil Eng.).

You and about half the other PhDs in America...

Seriously, though. For every one tenure-track job opening, you can count on 400 qualified applicants applying for it (I have many friends and colleagues on hiring committees who can vouch for this number). One of my colleagues is a math prof at a Cal State school--not exactly prestigious. This year, they got over 1,000 applications for the one tenure-track prof job in their department.

 

[twofish-quant]

Seriously, though. For every one tenure-track job opening, you can count on 400 qualified applicants applying for it (I have many friends and colleagues on hiring committees who can vouch for this number).

A lot depends on the field. People with Ph.D.'s in finance or economics from a big name university are pretty much guaranteed a tenure track position once they get the Ph.D. The catch is that the admission rates to those programs are tiny.