Are there galaxies with 2 cores?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the existence of galaxies with two cores, particularly in the context of galactic mergers and the behavior of supermassive black holes (SMBHs) during such events. Participants explore the implications of gravitational interactions and the dynamics involved in the merging process, questioning whether dual-core galaxies have been observed and what their characteristics might be.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that during galactic mergers, the cores of the galaxies, which may contain SMBHs, engage in a gravitational dance before potentially merging into a single core.
  • One participant notes that a few dual-core galaxies have been observed, referencing an external article.
  • Another participant expresses skepticism about the existence of dual-core systems, citing that the lifetime of such systems is short before the cores merge.
  • Concerns are raised regarding the mechanisms that allow SMBHs to merge, with discussions about the role of material ejection and gravitational waves in the process.
  • Participants mention specific galaxies, such as M31 and the Antenna galaxies (NGC 4038 and NGC 4039), in relation to the topic of dual cores.
  • There is a debate about the definition of a core and how the proximity of SMBHs affects the classification of cores, with one participant arguing that two SMBHs close together would still constitute a single core.
  • The concept of the "final parsec problem" is introduced, highlighting the challenges in understanding the dynamics of SMBH mergers.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the existence and characteristics of dual-core galaxies, with no consensus reached on whether they have been definitively observed or how they should be classified. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the mechanisms of SMBH mergers and the implications for galaxy structure.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include uncertainties about the definitions of galactic cores and the dynamics involved in SMBH interactions, as well as the observational evidence for dual-core galaxies.

Gerinski
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When discussing about galactic 'collisions' and mergers, such as the predicted future encounter between the Milky Way and Andromeda, it is often said that actual collisions among stars are extremely unlikely, it's just that the mutual gravitational influence of both galaxies on each other will gradually deform, distort, stretch or squeeze the galaxies' shapes, they will gradually engage in a gravitational dance around common centers of gravity, and slowly, if the gravitational attraction is strong enough to maintain the bond, the two structures will eventually evolve into some new shape as a new single and larger galaxy.

Assuming that the galactic cores (say both include a super-massive black hole) are following paths far from heading to each other head-on, they will also enter a gravitational dance around a common center of gravity. And all the stars from both galaxies would get involved into a highly complex motion affected by the common center of gravity of both galactic centers, and possibly by each of them individually if they pass close enough to any of them. This could in principle last for billions of years before the two cores get closer and closer to each other and finally merge into a new single galactic core, combining the mass of the two previous cores.

My question is, have we observed any such galaxies which display 2 separate cores resulting from a relatively recent merger? and if so, how do they look like? how they behave? what are their most interesting features?
And in case we have not detected any such dual-core galaxies, what would explain that fact? Wouldn't it be natural to expect that such galaxies must be out there in the right environments?

TX!
 
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Gerinski said:
My question is, have we observed any such galaxies which display 2 separate cores resulting from a relatively recent merger?

I do not believe we have. M31 has a double nucleus, but simulations show it's much more likely to have only a single SMBH at point "P2". The reason is that the lifetime of such a two core system is exceedingly short before they merge.
 
Vanadium 50 said:
The reason is that the lifetime of such a two core system is exceedingly short before they merge.
Isn't that based purely on observation?

As far as I understand, astrophysicists are stuck on the maths of what actually makes them merge. I was under the impression that SMBHs fall into each other by eating material by ejecting it, both alter it's momentum allowing them to fall into lower orbits. The linked article indicates that when they get within a few light years of each other, all of that material is gone though, no one is sure how they get any closer other than by gravitational waves, which are negligible at those distances.
 
Gerinski said:
...
My question is, have we observed any such galaxies which display 2 separate cores resulting from a relatively recent merger? and if so, how do they look like? how they behave? what are their most interesting features?...

Antenna galaxies ngc4038 and ngc 4039

220px-Antennae_Galaxies_NGC4038_NGC4039_Goran_Nilsson_%26_The_Liverpool_Telescop.jpg

The mice galaxies are not yet merged
300px-Merging_galaxies_NGC_4676_%28captured_by_the_Hubble_Space_Telescope%29.jpg


newjerseyrunner said:
...within a few light years of each other, all of that material is gone though, ...

My impression was that the space with few stars was the core. That would be 2 black holes inside of 1 merged core.
 

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newjerseyrunner said:
t when they get within a few light years of each other, all of that material is gone though, no one is sure how they get any closer

I think its closer than that. In cores the distances between stars are measured in light-minutes or hours, not years. You can get quite close before you run out of stars to eject. But even if it were light years, on galactic scales, I would say two SMBH's within even a few light years of each other in the center of the core means you have one core, not two. Where you draw the "edge" of the core is not well defined, but for any reasonable definition, the core is dominated by stars and not their SMBH's.
 
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Thanks for all the answers
 
Glad to know about this. Thank you so much for sharing.
 
Vanadium 50 said:
I think its closer than that. In cores the distances between stars are measured in light-minutes or hours, not years. You can get quite close before you run out of stars to eject. But even if it were light years, on galactic scales, I would say two SMBH's within even a few light years of each other in the center of the core means you have one core, not two. Where you draw the "edge" of the core is not well defined, but for any reasonable definition, the core is dominated by stars and not their SMBH's.
It is called final parsec problem - a few light years are right.
 
  • #10
wow nice! Thanks for placing the link here.
 

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