Asians - 70% of a future US brain power?

[Borek]

So, in another thread I found a link to results of 2011 Siemens Competition in Math, Science & Technology:

http://www.siemens-foundation.org/en/competition/2011_winners.htm

Apparently competition is held in US. Out of 20 winners 14 are Asians - 70% (that is assuming Vickram Gidwani counts as Asian as well). Yet wiki lists Asians as about 5% of US population. Is it just a statistical fluke, or something more? I have heard about kids of fresh Asian immigrants working much harder in schools than their peers, is it showing here?

 

[Ygggdrasil]

Because of US immigration policies which favor workers in jobs requiring high levels to technical expertise and education, most of these Asian-Americans are children of parents with advanced degrees and jobs in science and technology fields. So, there is quite a significant selection bias in the population of Asians in the US.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I have heard about kids of fresh Asian immigrants working much harder in schools than their peers, is it showing here?

Yes. Asians have a very different education ethic than Americans. This is part of their culture, it's taught to kids at home. Math is considered almost a basic life skill. The Asian parent is much more likely to supervise their childrens' homework and be continually insistent they bring home good grades. Asian kids are also steered into higher paid specialties by their parents. They value economic success and therefore whatever tools and skills contribute to that success. Asians are going to be important contributors in America's future.

 

[I like Serena]

I remember an earlier research that showed that the Japanese had an IQ that was on average 11 points higher than an American on a comparable test.
The suggested explanation was that Japanese children had to learn the ideographic alphabet at an early age, making them better at recognizing patterns.

I wonder if that is applicable here as well...

 

[Andre]

http://cimm.ucr.ac.cr/ciaem/articulos/evaluacion/internacionales/The%20mathematics%20student%20education%20in%20japan:%20a%20comparision%20with%20united%20states%20mathematics%20programs.*Mastrull,%20Sarah.*Mastrull%20S.%20The%20Mathematics%20Edication%20of%20Students%20in%20Japan.%20.pdf may be useful:

Abstract:

Study!

 

[Chi Meson]

In this regard, do Indians/Pakistanis count as Asians? I prefer to leave such check boxes blank, but if so, then I have a disproportionate number of Asians in my Physics classes and an extremely disproportionate number of Asians on my robotics team. I think it has always been the case that 1st-generation Americans have more "drive" thanks to recently immigrated parents. I tell you, I'm impressed by their work ethic, but it is nothing that is racially exclusive for sure.

 

[zoobyshoe]

In this regard, do Indians/Pakistanis count as Asians?

I don't believe so.

I think it has always been the case that 1st-generation Americans have more "drive" thanks to recently immigrated parents. I tell you, I'm impressed by their work ethic, but it is nothing that is racially exclusive for sure.

This doesn't hold for Mexicans, for example. Contrary to stereotype, Mexicans are actually very hard workers, and, of course, they flock to the US in droves. The unfortunate thing is that they don't have any historical cultural inclination to education at all. What they're taught at home is "Take any job you can get, hold on to it, and stay out of trouble." There's no internal pressure to get an education, or even to learn English. I think, in fact, in most Mexican's minds education is inextricably linked to wealth; wealth has to precede education, education is a luxury afforded by wealth.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

In some way it is, it's hard to pursue an education if you don't have money to eat. And many mexicans are really poor, asians are a little(the immigrants) more wealthy in general.
When really poor indians immigrate to the USA they normally end up as taxi drivers instead of doctors.

 

[skeptic2]

I worked in a US maquilladora in Mexico for 5 years alongside both US and Mexican engineers. The difference between the two was striking. The US engineers were generally better educated but not necessarily more intelligent. They liked to stand around discussing ideas, sometimes work related, sometimes not. The Mexican engineers, instead of talking about solutions, went to work trying them out. Most of the new ideas came from the US engineers but they got implemented by the Mexican engineers.

A middle manager of mine once hypothesized that the reason the US is so innovative is because of its diversity, that the diversity permits a wider range of viewpoints and ideas for solving problems.

 

[zoobyshoe]

In some way it is, it's hard to pursue an education if you don't have money to eat. And many mexicans are really poor, asians are a little(the immigrants) more wealthy in general.
When really poor indians immigrate to the USA they normally end up as taxi drivers instead of doctors.

I'm really talking about the children of the direct immigrants. Public school education is free up through high school, and it is, in fact, legally required. Illegal Mexicans suffer terribly from not being legal; they cannot take advantage of a lot of public services.

I, myself, went to an essentially free trade school (had to pay for books and some tools, is all) and most of my class mates were the poor asian kids who spoke bad English whose families were probably rural farmers back in asia. Even those families realized that being an electrician or welder was superior to working an assembly line or at McDonalds. The kids of those electricians and welders are, I'm sure, going to go to college and be pushed into engineering or medicine or law. Not so with Mexicans. There is a tremendous cultural inertia against upward mobility which seems to span generations. I think in Mexico there is an informal caste system, a separation of the wealthy from the poor that they all learn to think of as intrinsic.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Because of US immigration policies which favor workers in jobs requiring high levels to technical expertise and education, most of these Asian-Americans are children of parents with advanced degrees and jobs in science and technology fields. So, there is quite a significant selection bias in the population of Asians in the US.

I think it has always been the case that 1st-generation Americans have more "drive" thanks to recently immigrated parents. I tell you, I'm impressed by their work ethic, but it is nothing that is racially exclusive for sure.

These statements both agree with my experiences as well. But there is also a driver on the low end of the economic spectrum, which was easily seen with the Vietnamese immigrants after the war. Those who first landed here had nothing but the shirts on their backs. Then, before too long, they owned businesses, and it became common to see several Vietnamese families living together in a reasonably nice neighborhood. In as little as perhaps ten years, many had achieved upper-middle-class status. All along these folks [the ones that I knew, knew of, and went to college with for a time] worked and studied like slaves. Their drive and strict work ethic allowed them to climb the economic ladder quickly.

I have also seen how once the parents are successful, the children of immigrants tend to lose that drive and blend right in.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Btw, obvlously one competition doesn't qualify as a reference. It could have easily been geographically biased, income biased, culturally biased, etc.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I worked in a US maquilladora in Mexico for 5 years alongside both US and Mexican engineers. The difference between the two was striking. The US engineers were generally better educated but not necessarily more intelligent. They liked to stand around discussing ideas, sometimes work related, sometimes not. The Mexican engineers, instead of talking about solutions, went to work trying them out. Most of the new ideas came from the US engineers but they got implemented by the Mexican engineers.

In real life it is actually very difficult to find a "lazy" Mexican. I suppose there are some, but they don't represent the norm.

A middle manager of mine once hypothesized that the reason the US is so innovative is because of its diversity, that the diversity permits a wider range of viewpoints and ideas for solving problems.

Immigrants to the US are an endless source of fascination to me. The original British culture has always been dominant here but it's always been challenged by an influx of everything else. I have no idea what it might be like to have grown up in a mono-cultural country.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I have also seen how once the parents are successful, the children of immigrants tend to lose that drive and blend right in.

Yeah, I've seen this too in a couple cases: completely Americanized.

 

[AlephZero]

In this regard, do Indians/Pakistanis count as Asians?

Apparently yes, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_people

FWIW those groups are what most people in the UK would think of as "Asians", rather than people from the Far East.

 

[Awesomesauce]

Well, I can't contribute much to this thread topic as I am in the UK, but I am Asian myself (Chinese). Education is hugely emphasised in our culture as one reason; our parents and grandparents etc lived with little wealth and had to work very hard for little means (such as a farmer or food business more commonly now), so they base success on materialistic gain and respected career titles, as ultimately the idea is more wealth = higher living standard (Children are also expected to pay for their parents living when they are working). Also, as stated, a 'respected' career titles is important because the children are carrying on the family name.
Of course there are more reasons, but these are the two off the top of my head.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Apparently yes, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_people

FWIW those groups are what most people in the UK would think of as "Asians", rather than people from the Far East.

Hah! That's about as beautiful a failure of a classification system as I've ever seen!

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

I'm really talking about the children of the direct immigrants. Public school education is free up through high school, and it is, in fact, legally required. Illegal Mexicans suffer terribly from not being legal; they cannot take advantage of a lot of public services.

I, myself, went to an essentially free trade school (had to pay for books and some tools, is all) and most of my class mates were the poor asian kids who spoke bad English whose families were probably rural farmers back in asia. Even those families realized that being an electrician or welder was superior to working an assembly line or at McDonalds. The kids of those electricians and welders are, I'm sure, going to go to college and be pushed into engineering or medicine or law. Not so with Mexicans. There is a tremendous cultural inertia against upward mobility which seems to span generations. I think in Mexico there is an informal caste system, a separation of the wealthy from the poor that they all learn to think of as intrinsic.

I understand, I'm not american so I can't really say too much.
Although I have a Mexican name I'm brazilian and the same happens here, Brazil is home to the greatest number of japanese immigrants in the world and it seems nearly impossible to find a japanese here that is poor and without college education.
BUT although I may be biased(don't take that as my final conclusion) I've seen that some of the younger asians(japanese) don't take study as seriously as their parents did.
I had some asian friends in college and although their parents were all great engineers, professors and scientists they were slackers.
It seems that having money, sometimes, take away that drive to study and work hard.
It also goes to show that it isn't just genetics, but something cultural.

 

[thorium1010]

Hah! That's about as beautiful a failure of a classification system as I've ever seen!

Asia is a geographical term (continent ) rather than a ethnic or cultural classification. Asia consists of many countries which have different cultural , ethnic or religious background.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I understand, I'm not american so I can't really say too much.
Although I have a Mexican name I'm brazilian and the same happens here, Brazil is home to the greatest number of japanese immigrants in the world and it seems nearly impossible to find a japanese here that is poor and without college education.
BUT although I may be biased(don't take that as my final conclusion) I've seen that some of the younger asians(japanese) don't take study as seriously as their parents did.
I had some asian friends in college and although their parents were all great engineers, professors and scientists they were slackers.
It seems that having money, sometimes, take away that drive to study and work hard.
It also goes to show that it isn't just genetics, but something cultural.

The bulk of Asians in the US are Chinese and Southeast Asians. There are actually very few Japanese, except in Hawaii. The other Asians come to escape economic and political situations. There is nothing so pressing in Japan to escape from. I'm guessing the Japanese in Brazil represent the wealthier ones who move there for the luxury of a better climate, rather for the same reason they move to Hawaii, but that's a guess.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Asia is a geographical term (continent ) rather than a ethnic or cultural classification. Asia consists of many countries which have different cultural , ethnic or religious background.

Still, everyone knows the attachment of the Indian Sub-Continent to Asia was the result of an ancient inelastic collision. It's really a separate continent that got artificially tacked on.

 

[Astronuc]

Putting culture and origin aside, I think children who possesses curiosity about math and science, and who are studious and diligent will do well in the math and science competitions. I would expect that their parents have encouraged them, much like Richard Feynmann's father encouraged him.

Brian Kim (pictured) and Sitan Chen won second and third place, respectively, in the 2011 Siemens Competition in Math, Science and Technology. Brian, a student at New York's Stuyvesant High School, won a US$50,000 scholarship for his project "Packing and Covering with Centrally Symmetric Disks." He was mentored by Dan Ismailescu of Hofstra University. Chen won a $40,000 scholarship for "On the Rank Number of Graphs." He is a student at Northview High School in Duluth, Georgia and was mentored by Jesse Geneson of MIT. The overall individual winner was Angela Zhang who won a $100,000 scholarship for her project on cancer stem cells.

http://www.ams.org/news?news_id=1326

Congratulations to the winners and to those who participated in the Siemens competition!

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

The bulk of Asians in the US are Chinese and Southeast Asians. There are actually very few Japanese, except in Hawaii. The other Asians come to escape economic and political situations. There is nothing so pressing in Japan to escape from. I'm guessing the Japanese in Brazil represent the wealthier ones who move there for the luxury of a better climate, rather for the same reason they move to Hawaii, but that's a guess.

They moved here in WW2 because they didn't want to stay in concentration camps in the USA, nor get bombed.
I don't know how wealthy they were at that time.

There are also some chinese, but most of them sell yakisoba and pastel(pasteles)

 

[zoobyshoe]

They moved here in WW2 because they didn't want to stay in concentration camps in the USA, nor get bombed.
I don't know how wealthy they were at that time.

That's a bit of history I was not aware of! I had never heard that the Japanese detainees went to Brazil.

If they emigrated from the US at that time they probably arrived with next to nothing.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

I mean, they wanted to run away from Japan, but couldn't go to the USA in fear of getting arrested, and because there were already many japanese living in Brazil. And it kinda makes sense, the USA didn't want the japanese, europe was at war, africa was too poor...so let's go to Brazil(I don't know about Canada?).

Reading in wikipedia, it seems like japanese immigration started with WWI in part thanks to the misleading propaganda by the brazilian government that Brazil was a land of opportunities. Well, when they came over here they got screwed of course.
But they managed to do well regardless.
It doesn't tell much about WWII but I learned that in school, but it may be wrong.

I was a bit wrong about WWII, Brazil was also rough with the japanese and actually put some of them into concentration camps too.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I mean, they wanted to run away from Japan, but couldn't go to the USA in fear of getting arrested, and because there were already many japanese living in Brazil. And it kinda makes sense, the USA didn't want the japanese, europe was at war, africa was too poor...so let's go to Brazil(I don't know about Canada?).

Reading in wikipedia, it seems like japanese immigration started with WWI in part thanks to the misleading propaganda by the brazilian government that Brazil was a land of opportunities. Well, when they came over here they got screwed of course.
But they managed to do well regardless.
It doesn't tell much about WWII but I learned that in school, but it may be wrong.

I was a bit wrong about WWII, Brazil was also rough with the japanese and actually put some of them into concentration camps too.

Brazil has a bad reputation as a country that accepted German WWII war criminals after the war. That may be what you heard about.

It looks like the Japanese influx preceded that by a long time and that they had a bad time of it in Brazil for many decades:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Brazilian

 

[edward]

There has been a great documentary showing occasionally on CNBC for the last six months. I finally caught up with it last night. I haven't been able to find the two hour video online.

The title is: The China Question.

One segment dealt entirely with a problem that China emerged with when they started to modernize. Their students although brilliant and disciplined, had never been allowed to think on their own, let alone think outside of the box.

The end result was that they had a lack of inventiveness and innovation. They started sending students here for schooling. At home , as one Chinese businessman put it, they bought innovation from America.

I saw an add recently for American high school teachers to come and teach in China.

 

[rootX]

The end result was that they had a lack of inventiveness and innovation. They started sending students here for schooling. At home , as one Chinese businessman put it, they bought innovation from America.

That's bit over speculative.

I also noticed that cultures where children are well disciplined tend to produce hard working people but not so creative.

 

[lisab]

That's bit over speculative.

I also noticed that cultures where children are well disciplined tend to produce hard working people but not so creative.

I've noticed that too, but it's just my observation. I wonder if it's been studied in a rigorous way?

 

[AlephZero]

Hah! That's about as beautiful a failure of a classification system as I've ever seen!

It's logical enough in the UK for at least two reasons. First there are about 4 or 5 times as many Indians/Pakistanis as there are "far east Asians". The next largest group, the Chinese, are called "Chinese", not "Asians". Other far eastern countries barely register on the immigration radar in the UK.

Second, following the aftermath of Indian independence, the distinction between Indian and Pakistani is often a matter of accidents of history and/or religious persecution rather than geography, and "Asian" is a useful neutral description for those whose paperwork doesn't match their family history.

Not to mention the Indian/Pakistani Asians who arrived in the UK via Africa, for example the refugees from Idi Amin in Uganda in the early 1970s who are still known as "Ugandan Asians".

 

[zoobyshoe]

One segment dealt entirely with a problem that China emerged with when they started to modernize. Their students although brilliant and disciplined, had never been allowed to think on their own, let alone think outside of the box.

The end result was that they had a lack of inventiveness and innovation. They started sending students here for schooling. At home , as one Chinese businessman put it, they bought innovation from America.

So, the Chinese felt this was going well?

 

[thorium1010]

Still, everyone knows the attachment of the Indian Sub-Continent to Asia was the result of an ancient inelastic collision. It's really a separate continent that got artificially tacked on.

Really , so you are using continental drift to say some part of asia is not truly asia ?

btw, as seen in this thread asians are not only chinese. That creates more confusion than simply reffering them to as chinese, vietnamese, malaysians etc.

 

[zoobyshoe]

It's logical enough in the UK for at least two reasons. First there are about 4 or 5 times as many Indians/Pakistanis as there are "far east Asians". The next largest group, the Chinese, are called "Chinese", not "Asians". Other far eastern countries barely register on the immigration radar in the UK.

Second, following the aftermath of Indian independence, the distinction between Indian and Pakistani is often a matter of accidents of history and/or religious persecution rather than geography, and "Asian" is a useful neutral description for those whose paperwork doesn't match their family history.

Not to mention the Indian/Pakistani Asians who arrived in the UK via Africa, for example the refugees from Idi Amin in Uganda in the early 1970s who are still known as "Ugandan Asians".

I suppose if you wanted to call India Asia, that'd be OK, so long as you called the rest of it "Chinesia" or something similar. If one doesn't make a distinction between such distinct peoples, there wouldn't really be a reason to separate Europe from the Middle East. That's not aimed at the UK, in particular because, apparently, we, the US, officially call India a part of Asia as well. Which I didn't know till your previous post.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

Brazil has a bad reputation as a country that accepted German WWII war criminals after the war. That may be what you heard about.

It looks like the Japanese influx preceded that by a long time and that they had a bad time of it in Brazil for many decades:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Brazilian

Yep, scrap what I said.
The japanese came here at the beginning of the 20 century, now the question is, how wealthy were they?
I believe not much since Japan was not a very rich country at that time. Funny thing they choose Brazil and not some richer country like the USA or Canada.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

In real life it is actually very difficult to find a "lazy" Mexican. I suppose there are some, but they don't represent the norm.

I had missed this comment. I don't know how lazy Mexican immigrants might be as compared to anyone else, but as a whole, those folks know how to work! Even now, Alabama is changing a stiff immigration law because, guess what, Americans don't want their jobs! The work is far too hard and it takes several seasons to gain proficiency in the fields.

When I was about seventeen I got a summer painting job at Thermo King. We had two groups of gringos and one group of Mexicans [probably illegals]. The Mexicans did more than our other two groups put together! It was downright embarrassing. [Course I was in the group with the owners kid so we just screwed around half the time].

 

[Office_Shredder]

Even now, Alabama is changing a stiff immigration law because, guess what, Americans don't want their jobs! The work is far too hard and it takes several seasons to gain proficiency in the fields.

I thought it was because they were making a habit of pulling over Japanese executives who were trying to run automobile factories in the state

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I thought it was because they were making a habit of pulling over Japanese executives who were trying to run automobile factories in the state

Sorry, that does appear to be what boiled things to the surface. I haven't been keeping up like I used to.

However, there has been a rising tide of complaints from farmers who are desperate for help, as is indicated wrt to Alabama as well. It seems that in Alabama, they have realized that there are all sorts of unintended consequences.

Some of Alabama’s farm crops — its Sand Mountain tomatoes, for example — have rotted in the fields, as legal and illegal immigrant workers have left the state. Towns and cities report that small businesses targeting Hispanic workers have had to close their doors for a lack of customers.

By far the worst consequence is the damage done to the state’s economic development efforts. Earlier this month, Tuscaloosa authorities arrested a Mercedes-Benz manager from Germany, embarrassing a company that Alabama worked long and hard to lure to Vance.

http://blog.al.com/press-register-commentary/2011/11/repeal_alabamas_immigration_la.html