Assumptions behind Maxwell's equations for constant speed

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the assumptions necessary to derive the constant speed of light from Maxwell's equations, exploring the relationship between these equations and the postulates of special relativity. Participants examine the implications of sinusoidal waves, the nature of light in different frames of reference, and modern formulations of the relativity principle.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the derivation of a constant speed of light from Maxwell's equations requires the assumption of sinusoidal waves, suggesting that this might be equivalent to planar waves in vacuum.
  • Another participant asserts that sinusoidal waves are not required, only the assumption of vacuum is necessary.
  • There is a discussion about alternative deductions of Lorentz-like transformations that do not rely on the light postulate, with inquiries into modern formulations of the relativity principle that do not specify light as the maximal speed.
  • One participant mentions that modern treatments often start with symmetry principles, leading to either Galilean or Lorentz transformations based on experimental observations of speed.
  • Several participants express interest in references to modern treatments of the relativity principle and their correlation with theories regarding the cosmic microwave background (CMB) and variable speed of light theories.
  • Concerns are raised about whether special relativity allows for a universal speed limit that varies with time, with one participant asserting that it does not.
  • There is a request for more detailed references regarding the experimental aspects of variable speed of light theories.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity of sinusoidal waves in deriving the constant speed of light and whether special relativity permits a variable universal speed. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of modern formulations of relativity and their experimental validation.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the complexity of the references provided and the need for clearer explanations regarding the experimental side of variable speed of light theories.

giulio_hep
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I need some help in defining what are the assumptions needed to derive a constant speed of light from Maxwell equations.
Is it correct to say that this result applies to a sinusoidal wave as an assumption? In my understanding that is (more or less) equivalent to planar waves in vacuum: is it another way to define the context of this derivation?
Sorry, a final doubt: I've read that Maxwell equations say nothing about other frames of observation, so the invariance of speed from this point of view is a postulate of special relativity, not a consequence of Maxwell equations... my question is: have there been any new (more modern) experimental tests related to this postulate in the last couple of years? (found some recent articles in the web about CMB and variable speed of light theories)
 
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giulio_hep said:
I need some help in defining what are the assumptions needed to derive a constant speed of light from Maxwell equations.
You just need to assume vacuum.

giulio_hep said:
Is it correct to say that this result applies to a sinusoidal wave as an assumption?
No, sinusoidal waves are convenient, not required.
 
And what about different deductions of the Lorentz-like transformations without resorting to the light postulate? Are there modern formulations of the relativity principle, in which the maximal speed is not specific to the light and the derivation of the Lorentz transformations depends on the properties of the space-time?
 
giulio_hep said:
Are there modern formulations of the relativity principle, in which the maximal speed is not specific to the light and the derivation of the Lorentz transformations depends on the properties of the space-time?
Yes. In fact I think that most modern treatments do not make it specific to light. The modern approach is to start with symmetry. If you merely assume homogeneity, Isotropy, and the principle of relativity then you are left with only two possible transformations between inertial frames. One is the Galilean transform in which the invariant speed is infinite, or the Lorentz transform in which the invariant speed is finite. It is then a simple matter of experiment to determine that speed.
 
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Thanks again, could you please point me to a suggested one of these modern treatments (hopefully online)? How (if ever) does this correlate to CMB and variable speed of light theories. So do you believe that such a theory could soon be put to the test?
 
giulio_hep said:
Thanks again, could you please point me to a suggested one of these modern treatments (hopefully online)? How (if ever) does this correlate to CMB and variable speed of light theories. So do you believe that such a theory could soon be put to the test?
Based on your link, this particular variable speed of light theory does not say that there was at one point NOT a universal speed limit, just that it's value was different. If that is the case, you'd still have special relativity, just with a different number for c. But then, your article doesn't really go into any details.
 
Battlemage! said:
Based on your link, this particular variable speed of light theory does not say that there was at one point NOT a universal speed limit, just that it's value was different. If that is the case, you'd still have special relativity, just with a different number for c. But then, your article doesn't really go into any details.

The question is:
  • does the special relativity allow the universal speed to vary with time?
I'd say no.

Moreover I was kindly asking for a reference of the modern formulations of the relativity principle... while the article was only a marginal example (btw the article correctly quotes the Journal Reference 10.1103/PhysRevD.94.101301 with all the details, but they're too complex... I've notice also a free archiv version in the web) to say something also about the experimental side
 

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