Atmospheric railway versus conventional railway

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter tjej
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Atmospheric
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the comparison between atmospheric railways, specifically the Aeromovel system in Porto Alegre, Brazil, and conventional rail systems. Participants explore the principles of operation, efficiency, and historical context of atmospheric railways, alongside technical considerations related to energy losses and propulsion methods.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes the Aeromovel system, highlighting its use of a pressure plate for propulsion and the potential energy savings due to lower vehicle weight.
  • Another participant references historical atmospheric railways, noting issues faced in the past, such as maintenance problems caused by rats.
  • Concerns are raised about the efficiency of atmospheric railways compared to electric propulsion, with some participants expressing interest in analyzing the physics behind these systems.
  • Discussion includes calculations related to energy losses in the Aeromovel system, including pressure loss in ducts and motor efficiency.
  • Participants mention the evolution of materials used in seals from leather to rubber, and the potential impact of wildlife on these systems.
  • One participant humorously corrects a historical reference, emphasizing the importance of accurate historical context in discussions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

There is no consensus on the efficiency of atmospheric railways versus conventional systems, and participants express differing views on the historical context and technical challenges. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the overall effectiveness and practicality of atmospheric railways.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge various assumptions and uncertainties, such as the efficiency of energy conversion and the impact of wildlife on system maintenance. The discussion includes unresolved calculations related to power requirements for the Aeromovel system.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying transportation engineering, historical railway systems, or the physics of propulsion methods in rail transport.

tjej
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
There is a new automated people mover (APM) opening in Porto Alegre, Brazil called Aeromovel; it is built using atmospheric railway principles (see http://www.copa2014.gov.br/en/noticia/100-national-technology-aeromovel-reaches-its-final-construction-stages-porto-alegre)

The vehicles runs with steel wheels on steel rails but are propelled by a pressure plate running in a duct below the track. A pressure differential is applied to the plate by stationary electric motors along the track either blowing air or extracting air.

Someone asked me why they don't just use electric motors mounted on the vehicles. The argument for Aeromovel is that because of the 50% to 60% lower dead-weight of the vehicle less energy is required and this compensates for other losses.

Assuming the Aeromovel vehicle is 50% of the weight of a comparable APM with electric motors, obviously KE= 1/2mv^2 means the electrical energy translated into motion is also 50% for the same top speed. Thus the losses for Aeromovel in the converting electrical energy into air pressure and then conveying that pressure along the duct would have to be less than 50%. Assuming the other APM uses regenerative braking to recoup 20% this would fall to 30%.

I started to analyse each loss in more detail such as
1. the loss along the duct using
ploss*= λ (l / dh) (ρ v2*/ 2)
where ploss*= pressure loss (Pa, N/m2), λ*= friction coefficient, l*= length of duct or pipe (m), dh*=*hydraulic diameter*(m)
2. taking into account the greater efficiency (~90%?) of large electric motors compared to (~85%) of bogie mounted motors
3. the higher frictional force on the conventional APM
etc.

My physics is a little rusty so I'm not sure if I'm making this more complicated than it should be.
Also I'm a bit stuck as to the size of motors the APM would need; assume it accelerates at a=3.33 m/s2 to v=10m/s and its weight is m=5,000kg. The time is 3 sec (10/3.33) and the distance traveled is 15m (1/2at^2) but what power would be required?
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
IK Brunel had an atmospheric railway on the line between Exeter and Dawlish, at Starcross (in Devon) during the 10th Century. The only thing that seriously stopped it working properly was the rats ate the leather seals!
My friend keeps his boat in what was the old pump house, I believe (or next door to it).
Nothing new under the Sun.
N.B In his day, they didn't have the option of Electric Propulsion, which involves far fewer losses!
 
Thanks. I was aware of the precedent. You mean the 19th century. (It would have been really impressive if it was the 10th.)

Rubber seals have replaced leather ones and electric motors have replaced steam engines.

I'm really interested to see if the efficiency of atmospheric railways can be shown on the basic physics.
 
sophiecentaur said:
the rats ate the leather seals!
Rubber seals have replaced leather
Rats and martens love to chew on rubber.
 
tjej said:
Thanks. I was aware of the precedent. You mean the 19th century. (It would have been really impressive if it was the 10th.)

Rubber seals have replaced leather ones and electric motors have replaced steam engines.

I'm really interested to see if the efficiency of atmospheric railways can be shown on the basic physics.

A nice typo, there. William the Conqueror could have got to Hastings by train, perhaps?

For fun, perhaps but so many unknown unknowns, I think.
 
the rats ate the leather seals!

Rubber seals have replaced leather

Rats and martens love to chew on rubber.

There has been a system running in Jakarta for 24 years and there are no reports of rats being a problem. (martens aren't native to either Brazil or Indonesia so we won't know about that.)

Any comments on the underlying physics?
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
12K
  • · Replies 82 ·
3
Replies
82
Views
29K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
6K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
10K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
5K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
9K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
10K