Is Pilot Error to Blame for Icing Condition Accidents?

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The discussion centers on the tragic crash of a Bombardier Dash 8 Q400, which occurred under known icing conditions. Pilots reportedly faced severe pitch and roll shortly before the crash, with the landing gear and flaps being adjusted just moments before impact. There is significant concern regarding the aircraft's de-icing system, which was found to be in the "on" position but may not have functioned properly, highlighting a long-standing issue with outdated technology. The conversation also touches on pilot error, but many participants emphasize the need for more information before assigning blame, as weather conditions could have rapidly changed. Overall, the incident raises critical questions about safety protocols and the effectiveness of de-icing measures in aviation.
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Don't fly into known icing conditions.

http://d.yimg.com/img.news.yahoo.com/util/anysize/400,http%3A%2F%2Fd.yimg.com%2Fa%2Fp%2Fap%2F20090213%2Fcapt.47ac24e5a3de43cf8e46f8a78db23205.plane_into_home_nydd113.jpg?v=2

Pilot error.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090213/ap_on_re_us/plane_into_home

Families of the passengers should sue the pant's off the airline.

What a waste of a lovely airplane! :cry:

http://www.chc.ca/images/Dash8.jpg

My friend flies one, I'm glad he wasn't the captain!
 
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Physics news on Phys.org
I saw this on the news last night. A very sad story...
 
Cyrus said:
Don't fly into known icing conditions.

Especially with a full load of passengers.
 
The landing gear was lowered one minute before the end of the flight at an altitude of more than 2,000 feet, and 20 seconds later the wing flaps were set to slow the plane down, after which the aircraft went through "severe pitch and roll," Chealander said.

The crew raised the landing gear at the last moment, just before the recording ran out. No mayday call came from the pilot.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hpSZzqkNMwZvX2xrejSSUOyBGCYgD96BC2DG0

It looks like he stalled or close enough to it that he couldn't recover. I wonder if the plane had been on autopilot during the flight?
 
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You'd think a turbo-prop would have better maneuverability?
 
WhoWee said:
You'd think a turbo-prop would have better maneuverability?

Not flying in ice I woudln't. I would expect it to do exactly what it did, fly straight into the ground. I'm amazed he flew with ice on the windsheild! He should have noticed sluggish controls long before it got that bad, unless it was a sudden - rappid build up of ice. In which case they had no chance of recovering.
 
I guess the question is what SHOULD be done if ice is detected in-flight.
 
WhoWee said:
I guess the question is what SHOULD be done if ice is detected in-flight.

Hit the de-ice button (if equipped), and fly away from the ice.
 
Cyrus said:
Hit the de-ice button (if equipped), and fly away from the ice.

If it's that simple...I hope they get their collective butts sued off.
 
  • #10
It depends. It could have happened so fast they had no idea until it was too late. (But I don't think it builds up that fast. I think it takes a few minutes). Also, they could have hit the switch but the system failed to work.
 
  • #11
As you said...how COULD he fly with ice on the windshield and not know?
 
  • #12
Ever shovel your drive way when it's iced over? -not snow, but ice. Imagine what all that extra weight all over the wings does. It breaks your back just to shovel 10ft of side walk. A wing is 30+ feet long.
 
  • #13
From the yahoo page linked by Cyrus:

The flight data recorder indicated the plane's de-icing equipment was in the "on" position, but Chealander would not say whether the equipment was functioning.
 
  • #14
These planes have pneumatic boots on the leading edges that can be cycled to crack off ice that is forming. Since the planes are built in Canada and are used there, they ought to be robust against some degree of icing.
 
  • #15
Did you all see that the widow of a 911 victim was on the plane? She met with Obama last week.
 
  • #16
Ivan Seeking said:
Did you all see that the widow of a 911 victim was on the plane? She met with Obama last week.

I just read an account of her last conversation with her husband...she was on the phone with him, they said their good-byes, and then a loud explosion and a "whoosh" then nothing...I can't imagine her feelings.
 
  • #17
Cyrus said:
It depends. It could have happened so fast they had no idea until it was too late. (But I don't think it builds up that fast. I think it takes a few minutes). Also, they could have hit the switch but the system failed to work.

The problem coming to light is that this craft does not have an automatic deicing system. There has been legislation in process for 15 years that would require automatic deicing - ever since another plane like this crashed due to ice - but it has never been passed.
 
  • #18
WhoWee said:
I just read an account of her last conversation with her husband...she was on the phone with him, they said their good-byes, and then a loud explosion and a "whoosh" then nothing...I can't imagine her feelings.

I'm pretty sure they were just sitting in their seats until all of a sudden WHAM you're dead. As a passenger, you wouldn't know what hit you. All you see is gray haze out the window, so you don't have a horizon reference to say "uh oh, were going straight into the ground". The ground would just suddenly appear out your window when you are probably 100 feet in alittude, which would probably then take another half a second before you crash into the earth. By the time you register something bad is going to happen you would be dead before you had time to internalize it. (This is why it's bad for the pilots. They only realize their attitude relative to the Earth RIGHT BEFORE they fly into the mountain, at which point pulling up is futile). You are flying along and then all of a sudden the mountain appears out of the clouds infront of your windscreen. 3...2...1...you're dead. Pilot error.
 
  • #19
I'm not ready to throw this on pilot error just yet. A european airline grounded their entire fleet of the exact same aircraft because of this very problem. Also, I heard a report of the weather balloon data from that airport and they had icing conditions up to and above 30,000 ft. The pilot requested three, IIRC, altitude adjustments from the tower trying to lower altitude on approach. The big question now is did they know in their pre-flight weather brief of the icing conditions? I would think yes, but in that area with lake effect weather so prominent it could have snuck up on them very quickly.

There is not enough information to start throwing blame yet.
 
  • #20
Cyrus said:
I'm pretty sure they were just sitting in their seats until all of a sudden WHAM you're dead.

I presume WhoWee was talking about the conversation between the woman and her husband when he was on one of the 9-11 planes.
 
  • #21
cristo said:
I presume WhoWee was talking about the conversation between the woman and her husband when he was on one of the 9-11 planes.

Ah, yes. I see what you mean now.
 
  • #22
Ivan Seeking said:
The problem coming to light is that this craft does not have an automatic deicing system. There has been legislation in process for 15 years that would require automatic deicing - ever since another plane like this crashed due to ice - but it has never been passed.
It was an ATR-72 (American Eagle) that crashed near Gary, Indiana - Oct 31, 1994 - due to icing on the wings. It did not have de-icing equipment. 68 killed

I believe some Dash 8's have deicing equipment, as turbo mentioned the rubber boot on the leading edge. I've seen them in operation on flights I've been on, and I've landed in snow on a Dash 8.

As I understand it, the crew reported icing on the windshield on the approach. They were flying out of Newark, where the weather was above freezing, but northwest in Buffalo, the conditions were foggy and below freezing.

The plane was flying under contract to Continental Airlines. The plane is operated by Colgan Air, Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of Pinnacle Airlines Corp.
MANASSAS, VA--(MARKET WIRE)--Feb 13, 2009 -- Continental Connection flight number 3407, operated by Colgan Air, Inc., was involved in an accident at about 10:20 p.m. EST today while the aircraft, a Bombardier Dash 8 Q400, was operating between Newark Liberty International Airport and Buffalo Niagara International Airport.
http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/090213/0474070.html
http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/090213/0474165.html


Sept. 11 widow killed in Buffalo plane crash
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090213/ap_on_re_us/plane_into_home9_11_widow_13
Beverly Eckert was the 9/11 widow who was killed. She was traveling to a family function to observe what would have been her husband's 58th birthday. I imagine this is a huge tragedy to the families.
 
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  • #23
FredGarvin said:
I'm not ready to throw this on pilot error just yet. A european airline grounded their entire fleet of the exact same aircraft because of this very problem. Also, I heard a report of the weather balloon data from that airport and they had icing conditions up to and above 30,000 ft. The pilot requested three, IIRC, altitude adjustments from the tower trying to lower altitude on approach. The big question now is did they know in their pre-flight weather brief of the icing conditions? I would think yes, but in that area with lake effect weather so prominent it could have snuck up on them very quickly.

There is not enough information to start throwing blame yet.
We had warm weather Thursday, but it was expected to change from the 40's to the 20 during the evening. When the flight took off, it might have been OK, but the weather could have changed during the flight. We'll have to wait for the NTSB to determine cause, and what did and did not happen with regard to icing/de-icing.
 
  • #24
The thing with ice build up is that you should definitely see a noticable change in the handling qualities of the aircraft. It will get more and more sluggish/unresponsive. If this starts to happen, you know you have an icing problem. I wonder if they were just flying it on autopilot the whole time and never 'felt' the controls? I feel like they should have diverted to another airport.
 
  • #25
Astronuc said:
I believe some Dash 8's have deicing equipment, as turbo mentioned the rubber boot on the leading edge. I've seen them in operation on flights I've been on, and I've landed in snow on a Dash 8.

Automatic deicing was the point. If the pilot doesn't happen to notice in time, as was apparently the case here...
 
  • #26
cristo said:
I presume WhoWee was talking about the conversation between the woman and her husband when he was on one of the 9-11 planes.

Sorry for not being clear...her husband was in one of the towers. He called when the first plane hit and he called her and said he was ok...it hit the other tower. Then his tower was hit and they talked extensively. He tried to walk down and wasn't able to get past the fires/smoke. She watched the coverage and at some point told him they weren't going to be able to reach him.

That's when the said their good-byes and then she heard his demise...the story really got to me.
 
  • #27
Cyrus said:
The thing with ice build up is that you should definitely see a noticable change in the handling qualities of the aircraft. It will get more and more sluggish/unresponsive. If this starts to happen, you know you have an icing problem. I wonder if they were just flying it on autopilot the whole time and never 'felt' the controls? I feel like they should have diverted to another airport.

From what I saw on the news last night, they passed through some freezing rain just before landing. The deicing switch was found in the on position.
 
  • #28
Ivan Seeking said:
From what I saw on the news last night, they passed through some freezing rain just before landing. The deicing switch was found in the on position.

If it was that close to the airport, the airport is supposed to warn them about adverse weather and shut down the airport.
 
  • #29
Another complaint that I heard was that the deicing system uses antiquated technology that was developed in the 1930s.

When I hear something like that, a caution flag always goes up as old technology is often still the best option. But "expanding bladders" does sound pretty hokey.
 
  • #30
Cyrus said:
If it was that close to the airport, the airport is supposed to warn them about adverse weather and shut down the airport.

From what I understood, they passed through this just a few minutes before crashing.
 
  • #32
Ivan Seeking said:
When I hear something like that, a caution flag always goes up as old technology is often still the best option. But "expanding bladders" does sound pretty hokey.

The passengers don't count!
 
  • #33
CNN was just discussing the weather conditions that night. It seems that they had cold air with blasts of moisture coming from the South.
 
  • #34
There is a guy who ownes one of these at the airport I fly out of [actual pic]:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unti...hoto_id_DESC_&prev_id=1237550&next_id=1237448


(He also owns this one in the picture [it's an actual picture of it]...mmmmmm S76 sexy drool droool drool)
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unti...hoto_id_DESC_&prev_id=1286667&next_id=1281251

But because the runway is not very long, they have to go to the very end and take off with less than fully fueled to get off the ground. They nearly use the entire runway and can't take off in rain or they won't make it. If that plane ever looses an engine on takeoff its going straight into the trees at the end of the runway at 120+ knots and exploding.
 
  • #35
The commuter plane that crashed near Buffalo was on autopilot when it went down in icy weather, indicating that the pilot may have violated federal safety recommendations and the airline's own policy for flying in such conditions, a federal official said Sunday.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hpSZzqkNMwZvX2xrejSSUOyBGCYgD96C75700

You may be able in a manual mode to sense something sooner than the autopilot can sense it," said Steve Chealander of the National Transportation Safety Board, which also recommends that pilots disengage the autopilot in icy conditions.

Automatic safety devices returned the aircraft to manual control just before it fell from the sky, Chealander said.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=6882782

I had a gut feeling about that.
 
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  • #36
Cyrus said:
The thing with ice build up is that you should definitely see a noticable change in the handling qualities of the aircraft. It will get more and more sluggish/unresponsive. If this starts to happen, you know you have an icing problem.
The BBC is reporting that the plane was on autopilot, so just like the ATR72 a few years ago. The autopilot is struggling with the ice and when the plane gets unflyable it just drops out, hands the plane back to the pilot and says - your problem!

From other blogs it appears that switching to manual in icing is a good idea but not required.
 
  • #37
It seems that the deicing system was on the entire time.

The National Transportation Safety Board investigator Steve Chealander says deicing was turned on 11 minutes into the flight after it left Newark headed to Buffalo.
http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/wbfo/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=1470165&sectionID=1
 
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  • #38
Just because a system is on -and working, does not mean it will work. If the rate of ice build up is too large for the de-ice system to cope with, ice is still going to build up on the aircraft.

Major pilot error, IMO.
 
  • #39
Cyrus said:
Just because a system is on -and working, does not mean it will work. If the rate of ice build up is too large for the de-ice system to cope with, ice is still going to build up on the aircraft.

What is a pilot supposed to do if the rate of ice accumulation exceeds the rate of deicing?
 
  • #40
Ivan Seeking said:
What is a pilot supposed to do if the rate of ice accumulation exceeds the rate of deicing?

Don't fly into ice. Ice is very bad. Ice kills. The Maryland State Trooper rescue helicopter isn't ice equiped, so they can't fly in icy weather.

If you experience ice you change your altitude to see if it stops. If it doesn't stop you turn around and leave.
 
  • #41
Cyrus said:
Don't fly into ice. Ice is very bad. Ice kills. The Maryland State Trooper rescue helicopter isn't ice equiped, so they can't fly in icy weather.

Assuming that they were under the direction of air controllers, it sounds like there was nothing they could do. How were they going to know they were flying into severe ice? It almost sounds like the flight controllers were at fault. Or perhaps they couldn't tell that the conditions were as bad as they were?
 
  • #42
Ivan Seeking said:
Assuming that they were under the direction of air controllers, it sounds like there was nothing they could do. How were they going to know they were flying into severe ice? It almost sounds like the flight controllers were at fault. Or perhaps they couldn't tell that the conditions were as bad as they were?

No, you tell the controller you cannot comply with their instructions and have to divert. They would know because they shouldn't have left the autopilot on. Like I said, the controls would get very sluggish, and engine power would start creeping down. You can feel the ice on the airplane. The same way you can feel the pile of ice on your car if you don't clean it before you drive off. The pilot in command (PIC) is responsible for the safety of the aircraft, not the controller.
 
  • #43
Cyrus said:
No, you tell the controller you cannot comply with their instructions and have to divert. They would know because they shouldn't have left the autopilot on. Like I said, the controls would get very sluggish, and engine power would start creeping down. You can feel the ice on the airplane. The same way you can feel the pile of ice on your car if you don't clean it before you drive off. The pilot in command (PIC) is responsible for the safety of the aircraft, not the controller.

How long does it take for ice to accumulate to dangerous levels in the worst conditions?
 
  • #44
Ivan Seeking said:
How long does it take for ice to accumulate to dangerous levels in the worst conditions?

I've never flown in ice (nor do I want to try it), but from what I recall reading, it can take a few minutes. Then again, I'm not flying in bad weather all the time like the pros, so I'm sure they are trained to deal with worse weather.

According to my Jeppsen book:

In extreme cases, it can take as little as 5 minutes for 2 to 3 inches of ice to accumulate on the leading edge of the airfoil... Some aircraft may experience as much as 50 percent decrease in lift after the build up of only 1/2" of ice.

The problem with ice is that it changes the shape of the airfoil at the leading edge. Most of the lift is created at the first 1/3 of the airfoil section, so its very important that this section is clean and as designed.
 
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  • #45
So while in auto-pilot, it would be fairly easy to get a significant accumulation in a minute or two, without knowing it.

I did hear that at the last moment, they tried to change to a new vector.
 
  • #46
Pilot's actions scrutinized in Flight 3407 crash
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090216/ap_on_re_us/plane_into_home
Chealander said information from the plane's flight data recorder indicated that the aircraft pitched up at an angle of 31 degrees in its final seconds, then pitched down at 45 degrees.

The plane rolled to the left at 46 degrees, then snapped back to the right at 105 degrees — 15 degrees beyond vertical.


Radar data shows Flight 3407 fell from 1,800 feet above sea level to 1,000 feet in five seconds, he said. Passengers and crew would have experienced G-forces up to twice as strong as on the ground.

The plane crashed belly-first on top of a house about six miles short of Buffalo Niagara International Airport, two to three minutes from when it should have touched down on the runway.

Just before they went down in a suburban neighborhood, the pilots discussed "significant" ice buildup on their wings and windshield. Other aircraft in the area told air traffic controllers they also experienced icing around the same time.

Chealander said in an interview that the pilot may have rejected federal safety recommendations and the airline's own policy for flying in icy conditions by leaving the autopilot on even after he notified air traffic control that the flight crew had spotted ice on the leading edge of the wings and the windshield.

The Dash 8 Q400 plane, operated by Colgan Air, was equipped with a "stick shaker" and "stick pusher" mechanism that rattles the yoke to warn the pilot if the plane is about to lose aerodynamic lift, a condition called a stall. If not corrected in time, the mechanism automatically pushes the stick forward to avert a stall.

Chealander said the plane was on autopilot until the "stick shaker" and "stick pusher" kicked in, automatically putting the plane back in the pilot's hands.

At some point, the pilot switched on an anti-stall device that increases the speed of the plane by 20 knots and gives a pilot more margin to recover from a stall if it occurs.

Asked whether the pilot might have overreacted by pulling the stick back when it automatically went forward, Chealander said, "Yes, it's possible."

Still, he was careful not to be critical of the pilot.

"Everything that should have been done was done, so we keep looking," he said. "We keep looking, trying to find out why this happened."

Chealander said the plane's deicing system was turned on 11 minutes after it took off from Newark, N.J., and stayed on for the entire flight. Indicator lights showed the system appeared to be working.

He said the pilot was being "very conservative" by turning it on so soon.
. . . .
One key question would seem to be why the plane pitched so violently? The condition of the plane seem to change abruptly.

Also, did he leave auto-pilot on too long? He did activate the anti-stall system.
 
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  • #47
It's not looking good for the pic for this crash. It's looking more and more like he may have overcorrected when he realized what may be happening. While no "illegal" to have the autopilot on in icing conditions, I liken it to having your cruise control on in rush hour. Not a bright move.
 
  • #48
The latest I heard is a concern that the pilot let the air speed decrease too much, and at the point when he should have put the nose down to get air speed, he increased power but pulled back on the stick, and the plane apparently went into an unrecoverable stall - and subsequently pancaked into the house.

Could the icing have affected the air speed indicator?

I wonder why the air speed would have been too low?
 
  • #49
Astronuc said:
I wonder why the air speed would have been too low?
Too slow for conditions probably. If the wings were deformed from icing, the pilot would probably have to increase speed to generate enough lift to stay in the air. I wouldn't want to be the one at the controls trying to guess what the plane's stall speed is with iced wings.
 
  • #50
Astronuc said:
Could the icing have affected the air speed indicator?
Icing is a problem so the pitot tubes have electric heaters
 
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