Barkhausen tubes and other unicomponent oscillators

[EinsteinKreuz]

So in my insatiable curiosity about electron tubes(I've been struggling to find a comprehensive textbook that discusses them-any title suggestions?)I came across the Barkhausen-Kurz Oscillator. So my questions is as follows:


1. What is the equation(based on applied voltage and current) for the oscillator output frequency?

2. I presume that this is a sinusoidal oscillator. Are there any electron tube relaxation oscillators that can be driven by a DC input? If not, how would a single component relaxation oscillator tube be constructed?

 

[dlgoff]

Welcome to Physics Forums

This was my "go to" tube reference back in the day.

For a downloadable pfd file of the 1936 edition go here: "www.tubebooks.org/Books/arrl_1936.pdf"

 

[Baluncore]

A Barkhausen tube is not really a single component oscillator. It is an active device that has gain and a self resonance that can be physically tuned to a centre frequency in a specific range. By loading it with a tuned network it can be stabilised and power extracted at the wanted frequency.

Since the bandwidth of the loading at microwave frequencies is usually insufficient to pass the second harmonic, only the fundamental is available so it will have a sinewave output.

The relative voltages on the electrodes decide the gain and whether it will oscillate or not. Operating voltages also decide the DC current and the output power available.

If you are into historical microwave oscillators then I would recommend you get a copy of; Volume 7. KLYSTRONS AND MICROWAVE TRIODES, in “The MIT Radiation Laboratory Series”. Vol 7 is available as a 24 Megabyte pdf download from Jefferson Lab. https://www.jlab.org/ir/MITSeries/V7.PDF

Adjust V7 in the above link for volumes V3 through to V28, the series index.

Massachusetts Institute Of Technology, Radiation Laboratory Series.
1. RADAR SYSTEM ENGINEERING — Ridenour (Use https://www.jlab.org/ir/MITSeries/V1-1.pdf )
2. RADAR AIDS TO NAVIGATION — Hall (Use https://www.jlab.org/ir/MITSeries/V2.pdf )
3. RADAR BEACONS — Roberts
4. LORAN — Pierce, McKenzie and Woodward
5. PULSE GENERATORS — Glasoe and Lebacqz
6. MICROWAVE MAGNETRONS — Collins
7. KLYSTRONS AND MICROWAVE TRIODES — Hamilton, Knipp and Kuper
8. PRINCIPLES OF MICROWAVE CIRCUITS — Montgomery, Dicke and Purcell
9. MICROWAVE TRANSMISSION CIRCUITS — Ragan
10. WAVEGUIDE HANDBOOK — Marcuvitz
11. TECHNIQUE OF MICROWAVE MEASUREMENTS — Montgomery
12. MICROWAVE ANTENNA THEORY AND DESIGN — Silver
13. PROPAGATION OF SHORT RADIO WAVES — Kerr
14. MICROWAVE DUPLEXERS — Smullin and Montgomery
15. CRYSTAL RECTIFIERS — Torrey and Whitmer
16. MICROWAVE MIXERS — Pound
17. COMPONENTS HANDBOOK — Blackburn
18. VACUUM TUBE AMPLIFIERS — Valley and Wallman
19. WAVEFORMS — Chance, Hughes, MacNichol, Sayre and Williams
20. ELECTRONIC TIME MEASUREMENTS — Chance, Hulsizer, MacNichol and Williams
21. ELECTRONIC INSTRUMENTS — Greenwood, Holdam and MacRae
22. CATHODE RAY TUBE DISPLAYS — Soller, Starr and Valley
23. MICROWAVE RECEIVERS — Van Voorhis
24. THRESHOLD SIGNALS — Lawson and Uhlenbeck
25. THEORY OF SERVOMECHANISMS — James, Nichols and Phillips
26. RADAR SCANNERS AND RADOMES — Cady, Karelitz and Tutner
27. COMPUTING MECHANISMS AND LINKAGES — Svoboda
28. SERIES INDEX — Linford

You can usually find a printed copy by searching http://www.bookfinder.com with the title and first author's name.

The Information Resources of Jefferson Lab is often worth a visit. https://www.jlab.org/ir/

 

[jim hardy]

Maybe:

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/rca-transmitting-tube-manualhttp://w5jgv.com/downloads/RCA-TT-5.PDF



outside my experience, just thought one of them might be a resource .

 

[Baluncore]

If you want the ultimate vacuum tube application handbook, 1500 pages in 25MByte, google;
radiotron designer's handbook H4 pdf

 

[dlgoff]

If you want the ultimate vacuum tube application handbook, 1500 pages in 25MByte, google;
radiotron designer's handbook H4 pdf

Just downloaded it. Awesome. Is there anything about tubes it doesn't explain?

BTW Check out page 3 and note the Olathe Kansas Public Library stamp. That's just down the road from one of our mentors and about a 45 minute drive for me. Curious.

Anyway, thanks. I've got a couple vintage tube products that's on my list to restore. It may come in handy.

 

[jim hardy]

Thanks likewise - old jim

 

[EinsteinKreuz]

A Barkhausen tube is not really a single component oscillator. It is an active device that has gain and a self resonance that can be physically tuned to a centre frequency in a specific range. By loading it with a tuned network it can be stabilised and power extracted at the wanted frequency.

Since the bandwidth of the loading at microwave frequencies is usually insufficient to pass the second harmonic, only the fundamental is available so it will have a sinewave output.

The relative voltages on the electrodes decide the gain and whether it will oscillate or not. Operating voltages also decide the DC current and the output power available.

If you are into historical microwave oscillators then I would recommend you get a copy of; Volume 7. KLYSTRONS AND MICROWAVE TRIODES, in “The MIT Radiation Laboratory Series”. Vol 7 is available as a 24 Megabyte pdf download from Jefferson Lab. https://www.jlab.org/ir/MITSeries/V7.PDF

Adjust V7 in the above link for volumes V3 through to V28, the series index.

Massachusetts Institute Of Technology, Radiation Laboratory Series.
1. RADAR SYSTEM ENGINEERING — Ridenour (Use https://www.jlab.org/ir/MITSeries/V1-1.pdf )
2. RADAR AIDS TO NAVIGATION — Hall (Use https://www.jlab.org/ir/MITSeries/V2.pdf )
3. RADAR BEACONS — Roberts
4. LORAN — Pierce, McKenzie and Woodward
5. PULSE GENERATORS — Glasoe and Lebacqz
6. MICROWAVE MAGNETRONS — Collins
7. KLYSTRONS AND MICROWAVE TRIODES — Hamilton, Knipp and Kuper
8. PRINCIPLES OF MICROWAVE CIRCUITS — Montgomery, Dicke and Purcell
9. MICROWAVE TRANSMISSION CIRCUITS — Ragan
10. WAVEGUIDE HANDBOOK — Marcuvitz
11. TECHNIQUE OF MICROWAVE MEASUREMENTS — Montgomery
12. MICROWAVE ANTENNA THEORY AND DESIGN — Silver
13. PROPAGATION OF SHORT RADIO WAVES — Kerr
14. MICROWAVE DUPLEXERS — Smullin and Montgomery
15. CRYSTAL RECTIFIERS — Torrey and Whitmer
16. MICROWAVE MIXERS — Pound
17. COMPONENTS HANDBOOK — Blackburn
18. VACUUM TUBE AMPLIFIERS — Valley and Wallman
19. WAVEFORMS — Chance, Hughes, MacNichol, Sayre and Williams
20. ELECTRONIC TIME MEASUREMENTS — Chance, Hulsizer, MacNichol and Williams
21. ELECTRONIC INSTRUMENTS — Greenwood, Holdam and MacRae
22. CATHODE RAY TUBE DISPLAYS — Soller, Starr and Valley
23. MICROWAVE RECEIVERS — Van Voorhis
24. THRESHOLD SIGNALS — Lawson and Uhlenbeck
25. THEORY OF SERVOMECHANISMS — James, Nichols and Phillips
26. RADAR SCANNERS AND RADOMES — Cady, Karelitz and Tutner
27. COMPUTING MECHANISMS AND LINKAGES — Svoboda
28. SERIES INDEX — Linford

You can usually find a printed copy by searching http://www.bookfinder.com with the title and first author's name.

The Information Resources of Jefferson Lab is often worth a visit. https://www.jlab.org/ir/

The wikipedia entry on the Barkhausen-Kurz tube describes it as a self-oscillating RF electron tube. Is this not correct? Moreover...What is the response of a Barkausen-Kurz tube to a DC voltage input from experimental data?

I did see an article from the late 40s or early 50s about a Barkausen oscillator that used an electromagnet to accelerate electrons from the cathode and another electromagnet further down the tube with the opposite polarity to deflect electrons back and create bunched electron clouds.

Now for a relataxion tube oscillator, I'd imagine it to be some kind of thyratron tube with high plate capactitance.

 

[Baluncore]

By definition, no “component” is ever used “stand alone”. Just as Barkhausen tubes once were, Gunn diodes for example, are used with other circuit components and tuning networks.

You appear to be looking for a single active component that somehow has the exact frequency and waveform characteristic you want without any external control.

Why build plate capacitance into the vacuum tube when you can attach it externally and retain the flexibility of design and later adjustment? I do not understand what incentive there can be to to build the frequency determining network inside the glass envelope of the active device.

 

[EinsteinKreuz]

By definition, no “component” is ever used “stand alone”. Just as Barkhausen tubes once were, Gunn diodes for example, are used with other circuit components and tuning networks.

You appear to be looking for a single active component that somehow has the exact frequency and waveform characteristic you want without any external control.

Why build plate capacitance into the vacuum tube when you can attach it externally and retain the flexibility of design and later adjustment? I do not understand what incentive there can be to to build the frequency determining network inside the glass envelope of the active device.

Good point. What I meant by a unicomponent oscillator wasn't a "standalone" component, but an electron tube which can generate a self-sustaining oscillating output from a DC input where the frequency depends on the input voltage supplied to it. Cavity magnetrons are a good example of the type of component I am talking about. What originally inspired my curiosity is how a self-oscillating electron tube that uses a DC input could be tuned to oscillate at much lower frequency ranges, like audio frequency, and so that is why I need to know how the frequency of a Barkhausen-Kurz tube is determined.

 

[Baluncore]

Cavity magnetrons are a good example of the type of component I am talking about.

Unfortunately, cavity magnetron frequency is controlled by the cavity dimensions. Voltage or current operating point, or the magnetic field, have little effect on frequency. The most significant frequency variation of microwave oven magnetrons is from thermal expansion of the structure. They are designed for 2450. MHz and sweep about 100. MHz, that is 4%, in a couple of seconds when power is applied.

There is no need for vacuum tubes. The CMOS CD4046 chip contains a VCO that would meet your requirements.

 

[EinsteinKreuz]

Unfortunately, cavity magnetron frequency is controlled by the cavity dimensions. Voltage or current operating point, or the magnetic field, have little effect on frequency. The most significant frequency variation of microwave oven magnetrons is from thermal expansion of the structure. They are designed for 2450. MHz and sweep about 100. MHz, that is 4%, in a couple of seconds when power is applied.

There is no need for vacuum tubes. The CMOS CD4046 chip contains a VCO that would meet your requirements.

Yes, and cavity magnetrons ≠ electron tubes. The thing about tube oscillators is that there are such things as Backwards Wave Oscillators(which are electron tubes with a zigzag wave guide) that can oscillate at frequencies in the terahertz range beyond what semiconductor oscillators are currently capable of. Vacuum tube oscillators, if I recall correctly, have greater frequency stability and tubes in general are less noisy than transistors. I am a firm believer in the supremacy of tubes to semiconductors when it comes to audio electronics and what brought this up is a project I am embarking on to build a vacuum tube synthesizer.

 

[nsaspook]

Vacuum tubes still have their uses in modern equipment but having designed, built and repaired very complex tube devices for 30+ years I can tell you there is nothing 'supreme' about tubes other than they help warm the room when it's cold.

If you need some audio source ideas for your project do a search for thyratron VCO.
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_7/2.html

 

[jim hardy]

I am a firm believer in the supremacy of tubes to semiconductors when it comes to audio electronics

now there'd be an interesting topic for the general discussion forum, because it's so largely subjective.

Personal theories are discouraged here on PF, BUT -------

there are interesting articles from 1980's where scientific measurements were made the harmonic content of tube vs opamp amplifiers driven into distortion,

and the high output impedance of tube amps vs low output impedance of solid state has to contribute to different transient behavior of the speaker cone(it's a linear motor).

Yes, it's subjective. A neighborhood Guitar-zan youth once showed me an old Dynaco solid state amplifier which he said "...has an unusual warmth , for a solid state amp". Looking into it i found it took most of its feedback from output current not voltage, so as to mimic a tube amp's high Zout.

There are articles published in respectable journals. If you find some, maybe mentors would allow such a thread.

No hijack intended.

old jim

 

[Baluncore]

I am a firm believer in the supremacy of tubes to semiconductors when it comes to audio electronics

I am a firm believer that both tubes and semiconductors have their place when it comes to audio electronics. I am pragmatic and able to make the design decisions needed to select appropriate components to meet the specifications. There is nothing special about a FET with a pilot lamp.

cavity magnetrons ≠ electron tubes

Magnetrons are vacuum tubes. They support a vacuum, have a filament and a plate current.
Fleming first invented the vacuum tube rectifier. Lee DeForest added the control grid to make an amplifier. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleming_valve

As a good example of a tunable vacuum tube oscillator you might consider the gyrotron. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrotron

 

[AlephZero]

I am a firm believer in the supremacy of tubes to semiconductors when it comes to audio electronics and what brought this up is a project I am embarking on to build a vacuum tube synthesizer.

there are interesting articles from 1980's where scientific measurements were made the harmonic content of tube vs opamp amplifiers driven into distortion,
and the high output impedance of tube amps vs low output impedance of solid state has to contribute to different transient behavior of the speaker cone(it's a linear motor).

There are also some interesting psycho-acoustic experiments that showed that people in general actually prefer listening to sound reproduced with a restricted frequency range and added distortion, compared with the undistorted original.

The experiments used listening tests with music played first by human musicians hidden behind a screen (so the subjects didn't know it was a live performance) who were also recorded, followed by playback of a distorted version of the recording that had just been made.

The conclusion was that many people preferred the low quality sound that they were familiar with from their own audio equipment, rather than the "real thing".

I guess this is still true, considering how many people listen to low-bitrate MP3 files played through cheap earbuds!

 

[nsaspook]

There are also some interesting psycho-acoustic experiments that showed that people in general actually prefer listening to sound reproduced with a restricted frequency range and added distortion, compared with the undistorted original.

I have a fairly good home theater (with acoustic room treatments, etc..) in the house with 8 large speakers of mine that look impressive but are actually vintage Radio-Shack enclosures with new speaker components and crossovers. I've found over the years that a new persons response on how they sound varies with what brand I say they are. I usually start a showing with the lights down so they can't see the equipment and they usually ask sometime during or after the movie. I'm still amazed at how subjective sound quality can be with different expectations. I'm also amazed on how people think electronics can fix a bad rooms sound. In a room designed and build for fine sound a cheap boom-box sounds good.

 

[EinsteinKreuz]

Vacuum tubes still have their uses in modern equipment but having designed, built and repaired very complex tube devices for 30+ years I can tell you there is nothing 'supreme' about tubes other than they help warm the room when it's cold.

If you need some audio source ideas for your project do a search for thyratron VCO.
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_7/2.html

Nice to hear from someone who has worked with these things!

FWIW, a big part of what intrigues me about electron tubes is the ability of certain tubes to self-oscillate when supplied with a DC input voltage. Like the cavity magnetron(@baluncore I stand corrected! Never thought of magnetrons as electron tubes but indeed they are even though the ones I've seen are shaped more like a thick disk), the Barkhausen tube, and the Gyrotron.

In particularly, I've become interested in Terahertz oscillators to which often use Backward Wave Oscillator tubes. Now in the case of transistors for audio devices like amplifiers, isn't there an issue of base-emitter breakdown(leading to unwanted noise) when the amplifier power is increased to a high enough level?

 

[Baluncore]

Now in the case of transistors for audio devices like amplifiers, isn't there an issue of base-emitter breakdown(leading to unwanted noise) when the amplifier power is increased to a high enough level?

Yes and No. That is a truism. By definition, anything “increased to a high enough level” can turn bad.

 

[nsaspook]

In particularly, I've become interested in Terahertz oscillators to which often use Backward Wave Oscillator tubes.

We used 'twits' in the electronic warfare and jamming equipment I worked on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/SLQ-32_Electronic_Warfare_Suite

This is one area where tubes might still be 'supreme'.
Even the new gear still uses tubes.

 

[dlgoff]

We used 'twits' in the electronic warfare and jamming equipment I worked on.

Damn. You really are a spook. Awesome. :thumbs:

 

[nsaspook]

Damn. You really are a spook. Awesome. :thumbs:

I was just another grunt keeping things running but I was one of those guys who could fix anything. It was a nice toy but we all knew if the crap hit the fan the Russians would just launch everything they had at once to wipe us off the planet and we had a very short lead time to do the same thing.
The TWT type tubes are unique in their ability to generate high power across a wide band of radar frequencies and when designed as a LNA, provide a very low noise amplification front-end for receivers that made them perfect for a wide-band radar detector that's also resistant to EMP. They are still being used in communication satellite transponders today.

http://www.r-type.org/articles/art-030.htm
http://www3.alcatel-lucent.com/bstj/vol42-1963/articles/bstj42-4-1703.pdf

 

[dlgoff]

They are still being used in communication satellite transponders today.

Just because you're an "old spook" doesn't take away from you being awesome.

 

[EinsteinKreuz]

As it turns out, Vacuum tubes are making a comeback at a much tinier scale. But technical books about them are extremely scarce and usually >50 years old(out-of-print)!

I have found a plethora of books on amazon dot com about audio frequency vacuum tube amplifiers, but pretty much nothin about vacuum tube oscillators(audio frequency OR radio frequency)which is frustrating since the latter are what interest me.

 

[Baluncore]

From 20Hz to 20kHz is a factor of 1000, so audio amplifiers need to have a very wide flat response. Oscilloscope vertical deflection amplifiers and radar receivers also required wide bandwidth.

In about 1897, Sir Oliver Lodge in London invented radio frequency tuning. Vacuum tubes followed soon after, so RF amplifiers and oscillators using VTs are usually relatively narrow band circuits with high Q. They often employ deliberate narrow band selectivity.

Since WW2 we have gradually migrated to spread spectrum and digital, both of which require wide bandwidth. But we do not use VTs since semiconductors are more reliable and use less power for signal processing.

There is plenty of VT narrow band amplifier and oscillator theory out there. Begin with the older ARRL or RSGB handbooks. Download the RMIT Rad Lab books from my earlier link if you want theory. Vol 18, Vacuum Tube Amplifiers. Vol 28, Series Index, has 3 pages indexing VT oscillators of all sorts from audio through to microwave.

 

[nsaspook]

As it turns out, Vacuum tubes are making a comeback at a much tinier scale. But technical books about them are extremely scarce and usually >50 years old(out-of-print)!

Go to archive.org: https://archive.org/search.php?query=vacuum tubes

 

[Baluncore]

Understanding the interaction of phase, gain and feedback are very important in amplifier design.

Since VT amplification became available, many aspiring amplifier designers have failed in an attempt to design a stable wide-band, high-gain amplifier. Some, such as; Barkhausen-Kurz, Butler, Clapp, Colpitts, Cutton-Touly, Franklin, Gill-Morell, Hartley, Mesny, Pierce, Robert Dollar, Squire, and Vacker, have turned failure into success by giving their names to oscillators.

 

[EinsteinKreuz]

From 20Hz to 20kHz is a factor of 1000, so audio amplifiers need to have a very wide flat response. Oscilloscope vertical deflection amplifiers and radar receivers also required wide bandwidth.

In about 1897, Sir Oliver Lodge in London invented radio frequency tuning. Vacuum tubes followed soon after, so RF amplifiers and oscillators using VTs are usually relatively narrow band circuits with high Q. They often employ deliberate narrow band selectivity.

Since WW2 we have gradually migrated to spread spectrum and digital, both of which require wide bandwidth. But we do not use VTs since semiconductors are more reliable and use less power for signal processing.

There is plenty of VT narrow band amplifier and oscillator theory out there. Begin with the older ARRL or RSGB handbooks. Download the RMIT Rad Lab books from my earlier link if you want theory. Vol 18, Vacuum Tube Amplifiers. Vol 28, Series Index, has 3 pages indexing VT oscillators of all sorts from audio through to microwave.

Will do(downloads). But what about Backward Wave Oscillators? Semiconductors have hit the lower limit for size and are almost to the upper limit for oscillator frequency. I know of no physical reason why electron tube backward wave oscillators couldn't be designed to oscillate at frequencies with multiples of 10 to 100 Thz...beyond. Did you see the link I posted about microscopic vacuum tubes?

 

[nsaspook]

Semiconductors have hit the lower limit for size and are almost to the upper limit for oscillator frequency.

There are semiconductor designs that extend the range into the thz range with quantum mechanical effects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonant-tunneling_diode

 

[Baluncore]

@EinsteinKreuz.
A research news item constitutes a dream, not a movement. I still work with VTs in the real world and I do not have your rosy view. I put my effort into removing relays, monostables and VTs rather than looking for opportunities where I might bring them back.

Making free running oscillators is not the problem, we now need to generate and receive modulated data streams. Optical data links employ semiconductor transducers, so they really can not need VTs. VTs will never match a FET semiconductor on speed, or noise figure at room temperature. How might you cool a VT amplifier to 5°K.

There are situations where VTs are still the answer. There are also situations where a VT has no application. For example, there are “non-linear transmission lines” made from semiconductors that sharpen pulse edges and make data links, sampling mixers and oscilloscopes with quite ridiculous speed and resolution. That cannot possibly be done with VTs.