Basic(?) Electroscope/Electrometer Question

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the use of electroscopes and electrometers in educational settings, particularly in high school physics labs. Participants explore methods for utilizing these devices to teach concepts related to electrostatics, charge measurements, and the relationship between charge and distance, while seeking to design effective experiments for students.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the quantitative use of electroscopes, noting that while manufacturers claim they can measure charge, their own experiments did not yield clear inverse-square relationships between distance and deflection angle.
  • Another participant suggests a college-level experiment using charged balloons to measure the angle of deflection, which can help calculate the product of the charges involved.
  • Some participants mention the challenges of calibrating electroscopes for charge measurements, citing difficulties such as small capacity and capacitive couplings.
  • There is a shared interest in reinforcing general concepts of electrostatics, such as the inverse-square relationship, rather than focusing solely on precise charge measurements.
  • One participant indicates a willingness to sacrifice an electroscope for massing components if necessary, while expressing a preference for avoiding certain types of experiments due to past experiences with breakage.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the best method for using electroscopes for charge measurements. Multiple competing views and approaches are presented, with some focusing on qualitative understanding and others on quantitative measurements.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in the ability of electroscopes to provide accurate charge measurements and mention specific challenges related to calibration and experimental setup.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for high school physics teachers seeking innovative ways to teach electrostatics and for educators interested in practical experiments involving charge measurements and electrostatic principles.

jds10011
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Hi folks; apologies in advance if this is covered elsewhere or posted in the wrong place.

I am a high school physics teacher, and I've been tasked with designing some new labs. I'm apparently confused by something rather simple here, so try not to be too hard on me. We have electroscopes that have angle markings for the deflection, 0 through 90 degrees (yes, I'm aware, this technically makes them electrometers, but no one seems to call them that). Of course, we can use this to make basic comparisons about the amount of charge various objects have, and also naturally use them to give students instructions (e.g. transfer enough charge that the deflection is about 45 degrees). However, every manufacturer of these electroscopes claims they can be used for quantitative measurements of charge amounts and relate to calculations of the coulomb force. I tried a rather naive experiment on my own time of using a single charged rod and seeing what distance from the electroscope produced what deflection angle. While of course I saw that further away was less deflection, I couldn't readily discern any sort of inverse-square-like pattern; in fact, it rather clearly was not.

Is there a standard experiment that anyone is aware of that utilizes gathering the deflection angle data, even if for fairly basic or "hand-wavy" use? I'd like ideally to have them learn something quantitative that isn't too far over their heads. This is a standard introductory physics course (not honors or AP, which also exist in the building), so the math can't be too tedious (though I'd consider giving them a derivation and a formula to use if it were something plausible for students to follow at this level). If there is a way to salvage some sort of sense out of the type of procedure I outlined above (hold a charged rod at various distances, look at angle measurements), that would be the ideal sort of experiment I'd like to see them get some sort of intuition out of. Any thoughts anyone has would be much appreciated.

Below are images of the sorts of electroscopes we have, though the foil type we have are particularly terrible, and the vane/bar/needle/whatever-you-call-it type are quite good, so I'd like to use those for this. I am willing to sacrifice one to mass the particular components, if that data would be needed, though I'd prefer to save an experiment of that type for the AP courses (I presently do one with holding up charged pieces of tape, measuring the angle between them, massing the tape, and eventually finding an estimation of the number of extra/missing electrons on each piece of tape).

static_detection_pro_electroscope.jpg
m-9593.jpg


P.S. I'd dearly love to avoid any pith-ball experiments, as the kids are amazingly capable of breaking them instantly in my experience.
 
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I've never tried to use electroscopes like these for actual charge measurements. Instead, as part of our college-level intro physics electrostatics lab we hang two equal-mass balloons on long strings from a single point on the ceiling, then charge them up (approximately) equally by rubbing them with fur (or a sweater), which makes them repel each other. Measure the angle of deflection, the balloon mass, and the string length, and you can calculate the product of the two charges with the help of a free-body diagram. Then if you assume the two charges are actually equal, just take the square root.
 
To calibrate such electroscope for charge measurements is rather difficult.
But connecting it to a HV source you can calibrate for voltage measurement.
 
zoki85 said:
To calibrate such electroscope for charge measurements is rather difficult.
But connecting it to a HV source you can calibrate for voltage measurement.

Hmm... I'm curious if you can clarify what the difficulties are? Thanks for your reply.
 
jtbell said:
I've never tried to use electroscopes like these for actual charge measurements. Instead, as part of our college-level intro physics electrostatics lab we hang two equal-mass balloons on long strings from a single point on the ceiling, then charge them up (approximately) equally by rubbing them with fur (or a sweater), which makes them repel each other. Measure the angle of deflection, the balloon mass, and the string length, and you can calculate the product of the two charges with the help of a free-body diagram. Then if you assume the two charges are actually equal, just take the square root.

This is similar to the scotch tape procedure I was mentioning with the AP courses. I'm not necessarily interested in making actual measurements of the charges, I'm more interested in getting them to see a general pattern, such as an inverse-square relationship between force and distance, and that this is true regardless of the sign of the charges. Something more quantitative would be great, but not necessary for a basic activity for students at this level. Reinforcing some general concepts and trying to build some basic intuition is a big step for them.
 
jds10011 said:
Hmm... I'm curious if you can clarify what the difficulties are? Thanks for your reply.
Problems with small capacity and capacitive couplings are sufficient to cause troubles.
 
Here is an experiment that could work. It's 38 minutes into the video.
 

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