Behavior of charged particles in a speed selector

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of charged particles in a speed selector device that utilizes electric and magnetic fields. Participants explore the conditions under which particles with velocities different from the ratio ##\frac{E}{B}## are deflected and the implications of varying field strengths on particle motion.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes the basic operation of the speed selector, noting that particles with velocities different from ##\frac{E}{B}## will be deflected either upwards or downwards based on the forces acting on them.
  • The same participant questions the behavior of particles when the electric field is much greater than the magnetic field, suggesting that knowing the magnitudes of both fields is necessary to predict particle behavior accurately.
  • Another participant asserts that if ##v > \frac{E}{B}##, then the electric field must be less than the magnetic force, thus challenging the initial claim about the forces acting on the particle.
  • A third participant introduces the Lorentz force equation and discusses the cyclic nature of the motion of charged particles, indicating that the average speed of the particle is related to the ratio ##\frac{E}{B}##.
  • One participant acknowledges a misunderstanding regarding the relationship between the electric and magnetic forces when ##v > \frac{E}{B}##.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of the electric and magnetic field strengths on particle behavior, indicating that multiple competing views remain unresolved regarding the conditions under which particles are deflected.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of field magnitudes and the conditions under which the Lorentz force operates, but do not resolve the implications of these factors on particle trajectories.

greg_rack
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speed_s.jpg
Considering the device above, which uses electric and magnetic fields placed properly to avoid charged moving particles with velocities different from the ratio ##\frac{E}{B}## to exit, getting deflected upwards or downwards. All that is easily demonstrable by equalling the forces acting on the particle: ##qE=qvB##.
Now, my question is: what happens to particles with ##v\neq \frac{E}{B}##?
What I found online if ##v>\frac{E}{B}## Lorentz's force will be greater(since it's proportional to speed) than the electric one, so the particle will get deflected upwards; otherwise, if ##v<\frac{E}{B}##, the electric force will "win" so the particle will move downwards... but this explanation doesn't satisfy me:
what if the electric field is much greater than the magnetic one, and even if ##v>\frac{E}{B}##, ##E>vB## and vice-versa?
Shouldn't we know the magnitude of both fields to predict the behavior of particles with ##v\neq \frac{E}{B}##?
 
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If v > E/B, then E is less than vB. It cannot then be greater than vB.
 
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Hello.
Lorentz force including electric field makes the charged particle move as
\mathbf{F}=q(\mathbf{E}+\mathbf{v} \times \mathbf{B})=\frac{d \mathbf{p}}{dt}
we should solve this equation of motion to know its motion. By solving the equation we know its velocity is cyclic in time with drifting speed of ##\frac{E}{B}## in time average. The trajectories are trochoids.

So your first v=E/B case is the special setting that this time average speed is an actual speed and the trajectory is a line.
 
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Vanadium 50 said:
If v > E/B, then E is less than vB. It cannot then be greater than vB.
Right, that's what I was missing... thanks for the hint!
 

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