Bode plot and stability margins

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the use of Bode plots and stability margins in control systems, specifically in relation to determining the ultimate gain, ##k_{cu}##, without employing Ziegler-Nichols tuning. Participants explore the implications of phase and gain margins on system stability.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant found ##k_{cu} = 0.5## and a controller gain of ##k_{c} = -0.3## resulted in a diverging output, prompting questions about stability margins.
  • Another participant inquired if the original poster is familiar with the definitions of stability margins, specifically phase and gain margins.
  • A participant provided definitions for gain margin and phase margin, indicating that they can be derived from the Bode plot and suggesting that the stability margins can help identify crossover frequency and gain margins.
  • There is a suggestion that the Bode plot of the open-loop transfer function ##g_{cu}*g_{p}## may not be the correct approach to find ##k_{cu}##; instead, the Bode plot of ##g_{p}## should be used.
  • Another participant noted that reducing gain shifts the crossover frequency to smaller values, which increases the phase margin, as illustrated by a green curve in a referenced diagram.
  • A later reply suggests simply finding the value that results in zero phase and gain margin to determine ##k_{cu}##.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty about the correct method to determine ##k_{cu}##, with some suggesting different approaches and interpretations of the Bode plots and stability margins. No consensus is reached on the best method to find ##k_{cu}##.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge a lack of familiarity with certain textbook sections, which may limit their understanding of how to apply stability margins effectively. There are also unresolved questions regarding the relationship between gain adjustments and stability margins.

gfd43tg
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Homework Statement


upload_2015-11-14_17-45-51.png


Homework Equations

The Attempt at a Solution


Hello, In part (b), I found ##k_{cu} = 0.5##. I found in part (d) a controller gain of ##k_{c} = -0.3## yielded a diverging output. Here are the bode plots for parts (a),(c), and (d). I don't understand how I should use the "stability margins" which are the dots on the plots for part (e) in order to determine ##k_{cu}## without ziegler-nichols tuning.
upload_2015-11-14_17-46-59.png
 
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Maylis - at first, are you familiar with the definition of stabiliy margins (phase resp. gain margin) ?
 
I know the gain margin is the inverse of the amplitude ratio at the crossover frequency (the frequency at which ##\phi = -180^{o}##), ##GM = 1/AR_{co}## and the phase margin is the phase angle at which ##g_{c}g_{p} = 1##. ##PM = \phi_{pm} + 180^{o}##

Admittedly I hadn't read this section in my textbook prior to posting this question, so I see I can use those dots to identify my crossover frequency and gain margins.

I think it doesn't make any sense to use the bode plot of ##g_{cu}*g_{p}## to find ##k_{cu}##, I should use the bode plot of ##g_{p}## and use those stability margins to determine ##k_{cu}##? And compare with what I determined it to be by playing with simulink to be ##k_{cu} = 0.5##

Here is a bode plot for just the transfer function ##g_{p}##
upload_2015-11-15_19-49-23.png

The phase margin is -31.8 degrees at 0.777 rad/s, and the gain margin is -6.21 dB at 0.633 rad/s. With this information, I'm not sure how to determine what ##k_{cu}## should be.
 
Last edited:
If you reduce the gain the cross-over frequency will be shifted to smaller values (the phase response remains the same).
And - as a consequence - the phase margin will increase. I think, that`s what the green curve in the first diagram shows.
 
How can I use this information to find ##k_{cu}##?
 
Never mind, you just find the value that will give zero phase and gain margin
 

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