How to determine gain and phase margins for a transfer function?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around determining gain and phase margins for a specific transfer function, G(s), within the context of Bode plots. Participants explore the relationship between magnitude and frequency, as well as phase angle and frequency, while addressing challenges faced by a learner in understanding these concepts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about how to determine gain and phase margins for the transfer function and seeks guidance on getting started with Bode plots.
  • Another participant suggests calculating the transfer function as a function of frequency (w) to determine amplitude and phase, noting the potential for 2π phase jumps in the graph.
  • A later reply provides specific calculations for G(iw) at w=1, presenting both the amplitude and phase values derived from the transfer function.
  • Another participant reiterates the calculation of G(iw) at w=1, providing an alternative representation of the amplitude and phase.
  • One participant recommends plotting amplitude and phase as functions of frequency and mentions that there are no phase jumps observed in their plot.
  • Another participant explains that the phase margin can be determined by adding 180 degrees to the phase at the frequency where the gain crosses 0 dB, emphasizing the importance of understanding phase margin.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the methods for calculating gain and phase margins, but there is no consensus on the best approach to explain these concepts to someone struggling with the material.

Contextual Notes

Some participants provide calculations and examples, but there are unresolved assumptions regarding the definitions and terminology related to phase margin and Bode plots.

Who May Find This Useful

Students learning about control systems, Bode plots, and gain and phase margins may find this discussion helpful.

annas425
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How would I determine gain and phase margins for the following transfer function:

G(s) = (0.38(s^2 + 0.1s +0.55)) / (s(s+1)(s^2 + 0.6s + 0.5))

We are learning about Bode plots but I am really struggling. I know that Bode plots display the relationship between magnitude vs. frequency and phase angle vs. frequency, but that's about it. I also know that s = iw (where w is \omega). Thank you so much, in advance! I am REALLY lost.
 
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You simply need to calculate this function as a function of w and determine the amplitude and the phase.
The phase is defined up to an indeterminacy of 2Pi.
Therefore, you might see 2Pi phase jumps in the graph.
Eventually you may find it nicer to smooth out these jumps.
 
maajdl said:
You simply need to calculate this function as a function of w and determine the amplitude and the phase.
The phase is defined up to an indeterminacy of 2Pi.
Therefore, you might see 2Pi phase jumps in the graph.
Eventually you may find it nicer to smooth out these jumps.

Thanks for the response! Honestly I don't understand what you mean…is there any way you could give me the steps to get started?

Many thanks! :)
 
For example, for w=1, you get:

G(i w) = -0.02024590163934427 - 0.1572950819672131 i = 0.15859268376650384 Exp(-1.6988053854680936 i)

the amplitude is 0.15859268376650384
the phase is -1.6988053854680936 = -0.54074654889676 Pi

And you need a definition (I don't know this terminoogy):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_margin
 
Last edited:
Nicer in this way:

for w=1

G(iw) = -247/12200 - 1919/12200 i

and therefore

amplitude(G(iw)) = sqrt((247/12200)² + (1919/12200)²) = 19/20 Sqrt(17/610)
phase(G(iw)) = arctan(1919/247) = arctan(101/13)
 
Make a plot as a function of w, for amplitude and phase.
I checked, there is no phase jumps.
 
the phase margin is your phase + 180 degrees at the point when your gain is 0 db or 1 magnitude.

so look on your bode plot where the gain crosses over 0 db. then look at your phase at the same frequency and add 180. Phase margin is an extremely important concept to learn.
 

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