Can a force generate rotation with moment arm=0 ?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of whether a force can generate rotation when the moment arm is zero, particularly in the context of gravitational interactions between celestial bodies like planets and moons. Participants explore theoretical implications and specific scenarios, including the Earth-Moon system.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that a torque is necessary to change angular momentum, which requires a moment arm, leading to the conclusion that a force cannot generate rotation with a moment arm of zero.
  • One participant questions the application of this reasoning to the Earth-Moon system, suggesting that the dynamics may differ in this specific case.
  • Another participant notes that if a celestial body has uneven mass distribution, the net force may not act through its center, potentially resulting in a torque.
  • There is a mention of tidal friction as a related topic of interest, indicating a connection to the discussion of gravitational interactions.
  • A clarification is made regarding the orbital mechanics of two planets, emphasizing that they orbit around their combined center of mass rather than one orbiting the other.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of moment arms and torque in gravitational systems, with no consensus reached on the original question. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

Some statements rely on assumptions about the distribution of mass in celestial bodies and the nature of gravitational interactions, which are not fully explored or agreed upon in the discussion.

jonjacson
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I wait for your thoughts on this topic... and maybe then I will give you a small surprise.

edit:

Ok, there was a misconception on my side that I want to clarify changing the original title by this one:

If there are two planets, rotating one around the other, and only gravity is acting. Is it possible that between them the net force is not acting between their centers?
 
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Okay, I'll bite with the expected answer: no, since you need a torque to change the angular momentum and you need a moment arm to have a torque.
 
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pixel said:
Okay, I'll bite with the expected answer: no, since you need a torque to change the angular momentum and you need a moment arm to have a torque.

Ok, and what if I say to you that the two systems are Earth-Moon?
 
jonjacson said:
Ok, and what if I say to you that the two systems are Earth-Moon?
I'd say you need to clarify what you're talking about.
 
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Drakkith said:
I'd say you need to clarify what you're talking about.

Done!
 
Im not sure i understand what you mean, but if Earth and moon had arm=0 i don't think we would be here writing on the forum right now
 
jonjacson said:
If there are two planets, rotating one around the other, and only gravity is acting. Is it possible that between them the net force is not acting between their centers?

As far as I know, a planet or moon (or other body) whose mass is not distributed evenly will not have the net force acting through the center of its volume. This can (and does) result in a torque.
 
Drakkith said:
As far as I know, a planet or moon (or other body) whose mass is not distributed evenly will not have the net force acting through the center of its volume. This can (and does) result in a torque.

Well I was reading about tidal friction, a topic I found really interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatise_on_Natural_Philosophy#cite_note-4

It is in volume 1, article 276, a nice read folks!
 
jonjacson said:
If there are two planets, rotating one around the other,

Small point but.. One planet doesn't orbit around the other. They both orbit around the combined centre of mass.

http://astro.unl.edu/naap/esp/centerofmass.html
 
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