Can Chaotic Trajectories Approximating Periodic Orbits Exist Over Time?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the existence of chaotic trajectories that can approximate periodic orbits over a specified duration of time. Participants explore the relationship between chaotic systems and periodic orbits, considering both theoretical implications and specific examples.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether a chaotic trajectory can approximate a periodic trajectory for a given duration T with a specified accuracy, noting that chaotic orbits tend to stray from periodicity over time.
  • Another participant suggests that in chaotic systems, periodic orbits are dense in phase space, implying that chaotic trajectories can often resemble periodic orbits without being periodic themselves.
  • This participant also indicates that while dense periodic orbits are necessary for chaos, their presence does not guarantee chaos, especially in regions with isolated periodic orbits.
  • One participant mentions that periodic and 'straggling' geodesics being close together is a common occurrence in conservative systems, suggesting a potential link to the original question.
  • Another participant reiterates the idea that chaotic orbits, due to their sensitivity to initial conditions, will separate from any nearby orbit over time, which may relate to the approximation of periodic orbits.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between chaotic trajectories and periodic orbits. There is no consensus on whether a chaotic trajectory can consistently approximate a periodic orbit, as some argue it may depend on the nature of the periodic orbits in question.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of distinguishing between isolated periodic orbits and dense periodic orbits in the context of chaos. The discussion also reflects uncertainty regarding the implications of chaotic behavior in relation to periodic trajectories.

Eynstone
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Consider a dynamic system with a periodic trajectory. Given an arbitrary duration T of time,
does there exist a chaotic trajectory of a similar system which approximates the closed orbit
for the duration T with a given accuracy?
Chaotic orbits which I've seen so far appear to be almost periodic at times but eventually stray off. I wonder if this is a general phenomenon.
 
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If you have a system that exhibits chaos this system will have a region of phase space in which periodic orbits are dense, meaning that for any periodic orbit you can find another one arbitrarily close. A chaotic trajectory in such a region will indeed often look similar to a periodic orbit without actually being periodic and off the top of my head I do believe that for any such periodic orbit you can find an arbitrarily close chaotic trajectory (perhaps someone else can confirm this?).

However, note that since dense periodic orbits is a necessary but not a sufficient condition for chaos the reverse is not true, that is, a system is not necessarily chaotic just because it has dense periodic orbits. If you even more have a system with only single periodic orbit in a region (that is, periodic orbits are not dense in that region), then you can conclude that is not chaotic. I say this because I am not sure if you think of an isolated periodic orbit or not.
 
I've some good reasons to believe this. Periodic & 'straggling' geodesics being close together is a common phenomenon. The paths of most conservative systems can be modeled as geodesics on surfaces.
 
Eynstone said:
I've some good reasons to believe this. Periodic & 'straggling' geodesics being close together is a common phenomenon. The paths of most conservative systems can be modeled as geodesics on surfaces.

It's not clear to me where you want to go with this and if you have a question in there somewhere. If you want to pursue the matter you can perhaps describe your problem in more detail; a concrete example is usually always a good starting point.

Your original post contains two questions. The first seems to have the answer "no" under the assumption you are referring to a single isolated periodic orbit and the answer "maybe" if you are referring to dense periodic orbits. The second question can be answered with a "yes", since chaotic orbits over time by definition (i.e. sensitivity on initial conditions) will separate from any other arbitrarily close orbit.
 

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