Can Force Change Mass w/ Constant Velocity?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the question of whether a resultant external force can change the mass of a body while keeping the velocity of its center of mass constant. Participants explore theoretical implications, particularly in the context of relativistic physics and the concept of mass.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that an external force could change mass while maintaining constant velocity, suggesting a relationship between force and mass change.
  • Others argue that if mass increases by picking up objects, a force is necessary to keep the velocity constant.
  • One participant states that mass increases due to relativistic effects, questioning the validity of the initial premise.
  • Another participant challenges the notion of increasing mass due to relativistic speed, asserting that invariant mass does not change with constant velocity.
  • Some participants mention that relativistic mass is a deprecated concept and emphasize the need to understand force in the context of four-vectors in special relativity.
  • A later reply suggests that it is impossible for a resultant external force to maintain constant velocity without mass exchange, reinforcing the complexity of the scenario.
  • One participant notes that if a net force is present, the body must accelerate, contradicting the idea of constant velocity.
  • Another perspective introduces the idea of opposing forces acting on a distributed body, which could allow for energy gain without momentum change, potentially increasing mass.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views on the relationship between force, mass, and velocity, with no consensus reached on the initial question. Disagreements persist regarding the implications of relativistic mass and the conditions under which mass can change.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the reliance on definitions of mass, the unresolved nature of relativistic effects, and the assumptions about the system being discussed, particularly whether mass exchange is involved.

hackhard
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can a resultant external force on a body change its mass but keep velocity of its centre of mass constant ? Is it practically possible -
##\vec{F}_{ext}=\vec{v}_{com}\frac{\mathrm{d} M}{\mathrm{d} t}##
where F is nonzero
 
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hackhard said:
can a resultant external force on a body change its mass
If the mass is increasing by picking up stuff of different velocity, a force is required to keep velocity constant.
 
A.T. said:
If the mass is increasing by picking up stuff of different velocity, a force is required to keep velocity constant.
no body isn't picking up things. mass increases due to relativistic speed
 
hackhard said:
no body isn't picking up things. mass increases due to relativistic speed
Then you would be wise to rewrite the equation since an object's [invariant] mass does not increase due to relativistic speed.
 
hackhard said:
mass increases due to relativistic speed
You said the velocity is constant.
 
Dale said:
Relativistic mass is a deprecated concept.
Regardless of that, even "relativistic mass" doesn't increase when velocity is constant.
 
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hackhard said:
no body isn't picking up things. mass increases due to relativistic speed

A resultant external force and constant velocity of the center of mass without mass exchange? I'm afraid that's impossible.
 
DrStupid said:
I'm afraid that's impossible.
i just needed to know that
 
  • #10
hackhard said:
can a resultant external force on a body change its mass but keep velocity of its centre of mass constant ? Is it practically possible -
##\vec{F}_{ext}=\vec{v}_{com}\frac{\mathrm{d} M}{\mathrm{d} t}##
where F is nonzero

If the net force on a body is nonzero, it must accelerate, therefore the velocity of its center of mass will not be constant if a net force is present.

It is possible to have a pair of opposing forces acting on different parts of a distributed body (which is not a single particle). If this pair of forces is doing net work on the body, the body will gain energy without gaining momentum, which implies that both its relativistic and invariant mass of the body will increase. Note that the energy needs to be stored somewhere, for instance by heating the body (which is due to internal vibrations of its molecules). Usually there is some limit on how much energy a realistic body can absorb in this manner - for instance, if you imagine that the pair of forces is turning a wheel agains some brake drums, the wheel and brakes will heat up, and eventually they'll fail.
 

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