Can God's Existence be Proven Subjectively but not Objectively?

[heusdens]

As far as the whole big bang thing... Einstein's theory states that time and space started at the big bang. Thats what I was trying to say. The early universe was much too energetic for elementary particles to form in the first moments, and so they came to be later along in the cosmic evolution. This is the source of my argument, that particles haven't existed forever.

The theory of general relativity - the math model for the universe - shows as Friendman explores first a singularity near the beginning. That is correct.
But what does that mean? I think that scientist will tell you that exactly there the general theory of relativity breaks down, and can not predict anything any longer.

The idea as if in some way there was a singularity has become quite popular and in fact has become the intepretation of the big bang.
Which, really, it is not. The Big bang theory says that in earlier time, the universe was denser, hotter and smaller. It is not a theory of the begin of the universe.

However, there have been models made about the universe, like for instance the Hawking-Hartle-Turok hypothesis about a singularity at the beginning as a possible model for the big bang. These are called pre-big bang scenario's, that try to explain how and why the big bang happened.

The most succesfull model (or: models, as there are several models) so far however is the theory of cosmological inflation. So far it has stand the test and predicts things about the universe (quantum fluctuations, flatness, etc.) that are in accordance with observation.

About matter: it is true that atomic and subatomic matter (particles) didn't exist near the very early universe (during inflation) and only after the universe was reheated were formed.
In that sense physical matter (ie. the particles) was formed from the energy that was available after inflation ended.

This is however not to say that (in the philosophical sense) it would be true that matter is creatable or destructable. In the philosophical sense everything that is "in motion" is material, which is to say that is anything that can be physically expressed in terms of motion, so including particles, waves, radiation, fields, etc. Physics describes how these material forms interact, etc.
In that sense matter (in the philosophical meaning of the word) can still be thought of as eternal.

You just stated that scientific truths aren't absolute truths. Prove that for me. If your statement is true, then it is absolutely true, right? Given that you agree on the definitions of math, do you mean that bessel's inequality is not absolutely true? Are you saying that it isn't absolutely true that for slow speeds, Newton's physics is a good approximation? If you spin a top, is it not absolutely true that it will precess under the influence of gravity? These questions may give you an idea of what I'm talking about.

I see what you mean. Well mathematics can reveal truths which are "always" true, so in the sense that is absolute.
Same for your examples of slow speed Newtonian physics outside strong gravity fields and outside the domain of quantum mechanics.

Objective truth requires commonalities, and agreements between those who use it. If there is any misunderstanding, more words need to be used to describe the situation. If you went by your own definitions, you wouldn't be able to communicate your subjective truths with others, since others don't know what you're talking about. If there is a common understanding, then things can be said that are objectively true. Unlike point charges attract. That is objectively true, as long as you know what "unlike", "point charges" and "attract" mean. Objectively true things such as these are true for everybody, as long as they understand the language used to state them. If none of us communicated with each other, we will all still notice that we are pulled toward the earth, but we won't all call it gravity, and we won't all think of it in the same way, but we all observe it to be true, in this case in our own unique ways. You and I are educated, and we speak the same language, and we call this thing gravity, and we both know that it exists, and it doesn't act differently for different observers. In the knowledge of how we define it, we will always recognize its character as gravity, and so it is an absolute truth that we're aware of. When we see repulsive effects, we won't call it gravity, because by definition, that's not what gravity is, so there will be no case where our definition of gravity fails us, just as there is no situation where our definition of addition fails us. Therefore, these are absolute truths. I agree that we will never know all of absolute truth, but the things that are true among us all--the objective truths, which don't rely on personal experience--are a subset of the absolute truth. And you're saying that scientific truths (objective truths) aren't absolute truths? Isn't it absolutely true that 1+1=2?

You said so yourself that science helps us to uncover the truth, and it will continue onward, but it will never reveal everything for what it absolutely is. So I think we both actually agree here, and we're getting caught up in semantics.

I think I might have expressed myself somewhat incorrect.

What I was trying to say is that scientific theory development is never complete, we never have complete knowledge.

 

[heusdens]

Ok. I think I'm not being fair to Heusdens. I'll make a little outline of things.

key point A: God can't be objectively proven to exist or not exist

key point B: three types of truth
1. Subjective
2. Objective
3. Absolute

Maybe I should've made a better format, and ask first of all if posters agree or disagree to key point A. Perhaps we should focus more on point A for now. Hopefully, we could try to speak in terms of the different proposed truths, and see if they can help us communicate better or not.

The argument I was raising is that the objective existence for the case of this higher being (existing as the sole and unique being without a nature outside of itself) can not be stated, cause in fact there is no objective existence possible for this "higher being".

Inference: non-objective existence means: non-existence.

Note:

This argument is of course dependend on how one defines "God". I can think of a definition of God that would be valid. For instance, think of it as the material causes and processes (extending to past infinity) prior to the big bang, leading to this universe being formed.

 

[Jonny_trigonometry]

The argument I was raising is that the objective existence for the case of this higher being (existing as the sole and unique being without a nature outside of itself) can not be stated, cause in fact there is no objective existence possible for this "higher being".

So you mean that since God isn't part of something higher, he/she/it stands beyond the reason required to describe him/her/it? So we agree then that God can't be objectively proven to exist or not exist, and that it is a futile venture. Thats good, we're on the same page here.

Inference: non-objective existence means: non-existence.

Note:

This argument is of course dependend on how one defines "God". I can think of a definition of God that would be valid. For instance, think of it as the material causes and processes (extending to past infinity) prior to the big bang, leading to this universe being formed.

Then you go further and say that due to the inability to describe God with rationale that can encompass him/her/it, God must not exist? Now how can you say the objective proof of the non-existence of God is due to the concept that objectively proving the existence of God can't be done? That is a logical fallicy. It's like saying that if we can't prove the cat is dead or alive, then it doens't exist at all. So your claim is not on objective grounds, as far as I understand it, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't make perfect sense to you (subjectively true to you).

And the thing about the big bang, you can have your cake and eat it too. I haven't formally studied general relativity or cosmology so I only go with what other scientists say, and I am aware that some of them say the universe is a perpetual motion machine. I'm fine with that, perhaps the universe oscillates between big bangs and big freezes forever. Maybe it doesn't freeze over, and crunches to the point where it bangs again. Maybe it's infinate and never stops expanding, then it will never become so entropic that it can't function anymore, so I don't doubt that maybe what we see in the observable universe may all freeze, but our 13.7 billion lightyear radius of observation could be nothing to the infinitude of the universe. Who knows? Your guess is as good as mine. We're of course not speaking of objective truths here when we settle on one particular guess.

So, now for the other ideas. Do you understand what I mean when I speak of subjective truth? That the things you experience are true to you, because you can't deny your own experiances? So if you experience all the things that give you the hunch that God doesn't exist, then it is true to you that he doesn't (subjectively), but it can't objectively true--as you agree it isn't.

 

[mosassam]

1) I don't see the problem with stating that an individual's experiences can be labelled 'subjective truth'
2) I don't see the problem with stating that God's existence cannot be proved or disproved objectively (in some circles this falls in the category of "meaningless statement")
A big problem with this thread (and many others) seems to be the use of the words "is" and "are". When used in a statement they imply an absolute truth - the universe 'IS' 13.7 billion years old OR at this moment in time, 13.7 billion years appears to be the best scientific estimate of the age of the universe.
If you look closely you may see that one of these statements can be considered 'true' and the other 'false'. From this point of view it may be that any absolute truth can only be spoken of in uncertain terms, by which I mean, we can't say it 'is' this or it 'is' that.
PS. My personal ontology (at this moment in time (whatever time may be)) concerning the universe runs along the lines of the Big Bang - Big Crunch. This makes the universe a cycle and my own observation of reality incorporates everything as being cyclical.
Jonny - I'm still not 100% sure about the nature of your philosophy, we still seem to be at the stage of defining certain terms (subjective, objective truth). Can you expand from here?

 

[Jonny_trigonometry]

Yes, I can show that the existence or non-existence of God requires a belief, and it isn't scientific to conclude either way. So both atheists and theists require faith of things beyond what is objectively true. Also, the burden of proof requires the disctinction between types of truth. If one wishes to prove somthing to someone else, then it is automatically implied that the proof is in the domain of objective truth. Therefore the burden of proof can't apply to religious debates, since nothng can be proven objectively. The only person you can prove religious arguments to is yourself, so the burden of proof is on oneself in that case. So far, we're still on objective grounds as long as you accept the proposed definitions of truth. I call this part of my philosophy because the definitions of truth that I propose aren't widely known, and so they aren't officially in use. I believe that a little thought can show that these definitons should be distinguished objectively, because they can help with understanding many things if one starts applying them.

If you want me to go out on a limb, I think that if everyone accepted these definitions of truth, then many problems can be resolved via mutual understanding. They help to let us all know that we are all in the same situation, and our beliefs are all on the same ground. This will help people to know that their beliefs aren't superior to others. Hopefully, if everyone understands this, then we will respect each other more, and show more compassion, acceptence and understanding. Perhaps we'd stop ourselves from basking in the power trip that we get when we say that someone else is wrong, especially in the case of religious beliefs, because it leads to self-aggrandizement, narcisism, closed-mindedness, etc.

 

[heusdens]

Why doubt the basic facts of reality?

Suppose you have just opened your eyes and are new to this world. Anybody reading this has been into this position, so you know what I'm talking about.
Now you wonder about the world and about life and things, and try to figure it out. Let's see where it gets you.

You know you are new to this world because you have a limited memory back, it doesn't even go back to the beginning, since already some time before that, your memory fades away. Also there are people around you who claim to know there was a time where you were not there. Ok. So what does that means: it means the world already was there before you were there. Not very shocking information, that is how the world is, people are born, people die.
How about the world? Was it always there? Could it have been there was not a world? Well think about it. Well if there has not been a world, then neither you would be there, isn't it? Even if you try to think about a non-existing world, and if you imagine there be no matter, time and space, you still have your thinking about it, so the non-existing world is unthinkable.
By the way, the only one to which this matters is you, the world itself it could not care about it the least and anyways it has not a choice either.
The world simply exists because it has not a choice of not-existing. Since the world exists now it means it always has and always will.

There is one thing for sure: the world will always exist. It simply can't fail to exist.
This is one good and big truth, and all the rest, we may doubt about, but about this one we can't, neither need to or have to. For the rest of our lives we probably will not ever be bothered about it, since it speaks for itself.
We may be in doubt about every other fact about reality, even about ourselves, but there is one things we never have to doubt and that is that the world is positively there and can't fail to be there.

What is there in the world? Well there is a lot of stuff out there. The world is made from that stuff. And another thing the world is really big. Immensely big. In fact so big, it never ends. Now think about it, where could you think the world would end? Is there somewhere a signpost that marks the end of space? No, there isn't. There is more space past there. Stuff is everywhere. So there is an unlimited amount of stuff out there. Everything including you and me are made of stuff. That is how we are connected to the world. That is how we can do things, all the things we need and want for are made of this stuff. But no matter what you do with stuff, in whatever way you assemble it and disassemble it, or shape it or deform it, stuff doesn't go away, it always keeps being. That is probably the reason there is always a world, because the stuff simply won't go away. It is always there. Besides, there is a unlimited amount of stuff, space is filled with it, and even if you would want to remove it, you would have no place to leave it, so stuff won't go away.

What more is there? Well we do know about mind, because we have one (or perhaps: are one). We have a mind because we have a brain with which we can think. We can think with our mind. The mind is a little world of it's own.
Since it only exists in the form of thinking, it is a handy, but also limited tool. In thinking the mind is really inexhaustable in thought, it has no problem coming up with whatever thought. But it has a severe limit, all what it thinks has no direct impact on the world. We can bring up things in thought that don't exist, and can remove things from thought quite easily.
But all that this does has no effect on the world itself. What could exist in mind and what could exist in reality, are two different things.
Reality is what is in the world. Imagination or thought is what is in the mind.
We need to clearly distinguish these two, because what is or can be in mind, does not need to be so in reality.

Ok. This is how reality really is and how it works. So far no problem, and nobody who can deny it. We can check these facts for ourselves.
We need to understand that these are the bare naked facts of reality, which are the same for everyone. As a matter of fact, all people (wether consciouss ly or not) agree on these facts.

So far there isn't a problem.

But it is of course possible that people make up stories about the world, for whatever reason they may seem fit. Our mind is quite a flexible tool to do that with, so in that, there is no reason to see this as contradicting with reality. It is also possible for people to belief stories which are made up.
There can be stories about anything, and sometimes the facts themselves are difficult to check.
People may for example say or think that they belief the world has not always been around, and that some mind created the world. Just by thinking, supposedly. When this would be told to us directly, we would ask this person why they think so, since we are sure that is not true. The person who told us this, would never say that he made up this story, because we would directly call that person out of his mind. His mind could not have created the world, since for one thing, the world already existed before that person was born, and secondly, his mind is as limited as mine, and could not just by thinking create something out of nothing.
So, in such a case, clearly, we would have no reason to believe such a story.

This is however not how things are, since we are confronted with an inherited story, in which the story is that this mindly "creation" of the world, supposedly occurred by some unknown mind. Here the problem is that people, telling the story, do not claim anything directly about this mindly creation, they do not claim that their mind was involved, and so far, it appears to be, people belief this story. Then people ask you, why you don't belief that story.

Well, we have no reason to belief the story, because that is not how things are, that is not how reality works. Minds depend on the world, the world does not depend on any mind. It works the same for any mind. The world itself can not be bothered about all this, it has no choice anyway.

However, this story keeps on being persistently told by people, and lots of people seem to have faith in that made up story. And people keep asking: do you believe?

We do not have reason to belief the story. Simply because we know the basic facts about reality, which is that the world is there and could not have been not here, and we were not always here, nor will always be here. That is a fact of life. We are born, we live, we die. There is nothing to worry about, once we are dead we can't be worried about it, and when we live, we have other things to keep busy with. So why worry, and besides it won't change things.

Things would be far more simple if we just would stick with reality how it is and don't invent stories.

What to trust and what not to trust?
Well the world does not lie to us. Neither it has a choice or reason to or need to. It is simply there. It can't do anything else as being.
It is a good and positive fact there is world, instead of not, because that's why we can be here. Let's us do something positive with that fact.

Why should we have one bit of doubt about these basic facts of reality?
Why doubt? Why invent stories? Why tell lies?

Believers, those who belief a made up story, are not positively admitting to these basic facts about reality. Instead, they cause fear and doubt. They make us even doubt our own mind. They cause our mind to negatively turn against itself, they alienate us.

Believing is not a positive fact, it is a negative fact. It is putting doubt on facts that can't be denied and need't be denied. What good is that? What do you win by placing doubt on the world and having a belief in return? You won't win, in fact you loose, because now your mind is in trouble: you have changed certainty for uncertainty!

There is no reason to doubt about the world. The world states us a positive fact, the fact that it exists, and can't fail to. That is one thing we can be sure about.

So, get your facts straight about reality and stop worrying.
Regain your certainty, and distrust the believers out there!
Tell them, they should settle their facts about reality straight.
Minds do not create things. They only make up stories.
The world does not lie to you, it is positively admitting it's truth that it is there and can't fail to do otherwise.

 

[Jonny_trigonometry]

Since the world exists now it means it always has and always will.

Is this the objective truth? If so, then you should be able to objectively prove it.

There is one thing for sure: the world will always exist. It simply can't fail to exist.

Again, prove it absolutely. Subjectively it makes sense, but not objectively/absolutely. Objectively, we don't know if that is correct, it's merely a possiblity. You require a belief in order to conclude one way or another.

And another thing the world is really big. Immensely big. In fact so big, it never ends. Now think about it, where could you think the world would end? Is there somewhere a signpost that marks the end of space? No, there isn't.

How do you conclude this unless you have absolute knowledge of the geometry of the universe? You're simply concluding on one of the possibilities, which requires a belief to do so.

What more is there? Well we do know about mind, because we have one (or perhaps: are one). We have a mind because we have a brain with which we can think.

This also requires a belief for such a conclusion. Objectively, we don't know the answer. What if brains are like radio receivers? If you didn't know better, you'd conclude that there is a guy inside the radio, but you know that the guy is in a radio station far away, broadcasting a signal which the circuitry of the radio can detect since it is tuned to the right channel. I'm not saying you're wrong, because I can't daftly assume I know better (it would mean that I think my belief is better than yours, which I don't).

But all that this does has no effect on the world itself. What could exist in mind and what could exist in reality, are two different things.
Reality is what is in the world. Imagination or thought is what is in the mind.
We need to clearly distinguish these two, because what is or can be in mind, does not need to be so in reality.

To make things more clear, you mean to say "objective reality", because the reality I perceive isn't limited to the physical world, because I can sense things beyond my five physical senses, such as happiness, sadness, love, hate, hope, fear, anxeity, etc. All these things exist in my subjective reality, and they are subjectively true for me. With that clarification made, I agree with you, since to me, you're only speaking about the physical world.

Ok. This is how reality really is and how it works. So far no problem, and nobody who can deny it. We can check these facts for ourselves.
We need to understand that these are the bare naked facts of reality, which are the same for everyone. As a matter of fact, all people (wether consciouss ly or not) agree on these facts.

I don't agree on some of what you say are facts. They are possibilities, much of what you argue isn't objectively true and requires a belif in order to make such conclusions.

But it is of course possible that people make up stories about the world, for whatever reason they may seem fit. Our mind is quite a flexible tool to do that with, so in that, there is no reason to see this as contradicting with reality. It is also possible for people to belief stories which are made up.
There can be stories about anything, and sometimes the facts themselves are difficult to check.

Such as the claim that the universe is infinate, and will and has existed forever; and that a mind must exist in space-time in the form of a brain.

People may for example say or think that they belief the world has not always been around, and that some mind created the world. Just by thinking, supposedly. When this would be told to us directly, we would ask this person why they think so, since we are sure that is not true.

Well, we have no reason to belief the story, because that is not how things are, that is not how reality works.

When you say "we", you can't mean everybody in the world, because your claims aren't objectively true. Your claims are true to you, since you've personally experienced the things that give you this hunch.

Minds depend on the world, the world does not depend on any mind. It works the same for any mind. The world itself can not be bothered about all this, it has no choice anyway.

Yes, no matter how much you believe something to be objectively true doesn't make it objectively true. You say that minds don't depend on the world, that is enlightening. Wouldn't it imply that a mind doesn't depend on the brain, since the brain is part of the world? Or do you mean reality in general as perceived by an awareness, including the many facets of thought and emotion, which don't really exist within space-time?

However, this story keeps on being persistently told by people, and lots of people seem to have faith in that made up story. And people keep asking: do you believe?

You're very convincing, but that's all. Why do I get the idea that you're trying to make me believe what you believe? You may not be aware that you're not being completely objective in your arguments.

We do not have reason to belief the story. Simply because we know the basic facts about reality, which is that the world is there and could not have been not here, and we were not always here, nor will always be here.

The logic in this argument doesn't work. You say that since the world exists, and people don't live forever, that people's beliefs about the world can't be absolutely true. Sure, they aren't objectively true, but that doesn't imply that they aren't absolutely true, since objective truth is a subset of absolute truth.

Why should we have one bit of doubt about these basic facts of reality?
Why doubt? Why invent stories? Why tell lies?

Because what you argue aren't objective facts, they are what you believe to be objective facts. There is a difference. What you say may be absolutely true, but it may not be absolutely true, we just don't know right now.

You won't win, in fact you loose, because now your mind is in trouble: you have changed certainty for uncertainty!

In your case, you have changed uncertainty with certainty. In your mind, you are certian, but that isn't being very scientific.

There is no reason to doubt about the world. The world states us a positive fact, the fact that it exists, and can't fail to. That is one thing we can be sure about.

Again, you reiterate your belief that the world will always exist. Even if that's the absolutely true nature of the physical world, it doesn't support your claim that there is nothing else.

So, get your facts straight about reality and stop worrying.
Regain your certainty, and distrust the believers out there!

You're a believer. It takes a belief to be certain about things like this.Look. I'm not saying that you're absolutely wrong. I'm saying that you're objectively wrong. As soon as humankind's knowledge and understanding confirms your arguments, you'll be speaking objective truth, but until then, you're speaking your own subjective truth. I don't have a problem with your beliefs, in fact, I agree with some of them, but I do have a problem when you claim them to be objectively true. They are your beliefs of what is absolutely true, and they may or may not be absolutley true; humankind just hasn't become sophiscitcated enough with our knowledge and understanding in order to confirm or deny your claims. Do you understand what I'm trying to say about the difference between subjective, objective, and absolute truth yet?

 

[mosassam]

You require a belief in order to conclude one way or another.

I cannot agree with this statement. If a person can see things with clarity, including their own limitations, then belief would appear not to be necessary and a conclusion can be drawn without it. In the last few posts 'belief' has come up a lot and I would like to say something about it. It seems to me that belief has been at the heart of all human conflict, it has caused mankind unimaginable suffering and misery, and continues to do so. Hopefully, some day in the future, mankind will not have to suffer from the ignorance inherent in belief. We can do without it and should make every effort to abolish it, even if that effort leaves us in an uncertain place. It seems that, for many, the unknown is a fearful thing and they try to mask this fear with 'concrete statements about the 'truth'. The replacement of Aristotle's either/or, true/false logic with quantum uncertainty seems to reflect a great step forward in our admission of our own limitations, but by recognising these limitations we instantly transcend them.

 

[Jonny_trigonometry]

I cannot agree with this statement. If a person can see things with clarity, including their own limitations, then belief would appear not to be necessary and a conclusion can be drawn without it. In the last few posts 'belief' has come up a lot and I would like to say something about it. It seems to me that belief has been at the heart of all human conflict, it has caused mankind unimaginable suffering and misery, and continues to do so. Hopefully, some day in the future, mankind will not have to suffer from the ignorance inherent in belief. We can do without it and should make every effort to abolish it, even if that effort leaves us in an uncertain place. It seems that, for many, the unknown is a fearful thing and they try to mask this fear with 'concrete statements about the 'truth'. The replacement of Aristotle's either/or, true/false logic with quantum uncertainty seems to reflect a great step forward in our admission of our own limitations, but by recognising these limitations we instantly transcend them.

What I mean is that if you conclude that the universe is infinite, then you are doing so in the basis of what you believe, not on the basis of objective truth. If you didn't believe anything, then you wouldn't make such conclusions, because objectively, the universe could be finite. And so it isn't true that that is not the case, so to rule it out is not being objective (i.e. devoid of belief). Uncertainty is objectively true at this point in human knowledge on the subject, and for one to be certain of one answer shows ignorence of the other possiblility. For one to reach beyond objective truth (uncertainty in this case), and pick an answer means that one has a 'hunch', or a 'gut feeling' or dare I say a belief, which isn't known to be true objectively.

 

[heusdens]

Is this the objective truth? If so, then you should be able to objectively prove it.

Again, prove it absolutely. Subjectively it makes sense, but not objectively/absolutely. Objectively, we don't know if that is correct, it's merely a possiblity. You require a belief in order to conclude one way or another.

I think it is not even a logical possibility for the universe to not exist. However if it would have been the case that there was not a universe (a state of 'nothingness' - no time, space, matter) such a state would be a definitive state (ie there would not be any other state either).

In so far to say that the universe objectively exists is even meaningfull. One could also claim that wether or not the universe objectively exists is not meaningfull and/or can not be verified, given the lack of possibility of an outside observer.

I can say that an apple exist, because I have the apple as object, and I am an object for the apple. Therefore there is an objective relationship between me and the apple, and it's objective status can be verified.

However this is not the case with the universe, since no objects exist apart from the universe (by definition).

(universe is all of reality)

How do you conclude this unless you have absolute knowledge of the geometry of the universe? You're simply concluding on one of the possibilities, which requires a belief to do so.

The assumption is that it has no boundary or edge. This is not exactly the same as infinite, since one could think then the universes is the 3 dimensional equivalent of a surface on a sphere (which is then just one of many assumptions, like extra dimensions, etc.).

Since there is no absolute knowledge of the geometry of the universe, it is assumed the geometry with the least assumptions (no boundaries or edges, no extra dimensions or curvature), at least I guess it would take the least amount of belief.

It actually fits the data best (almost flat), although we can't exactly verify anything beyond the horizon.

If one would need to make a guess about the size of the universe, not knowing anything about actual data and special geometry or so, I think anybodys guess would be that it would be endless, because anything else assumes other circumstances (having a boundary or curvature).

But acc. to current models, the universe can be spatial infinite in different ways. It could mean a finite size expanding space with such a rate of expansion that one could never catch up (even when traveling the speed of light) with the farthest parts of the universe.
It could mean an infinite and expanding space.
Or it could mean a multiverse universe in infinite background spacetime.
Or it could be the model of M theory brane cosmology.

This also requires a belief for such a conclusion. Objectively, we don't know the answer. What if brains are like radio receivers? If you didn't know better, you'd conclude that there is a guy inside the radio, but you know that the guy is in a radio station far away, broadcasting a signal which the circuitry of the radio can detect since it is tuned to the right channel. I'm not saying you're wrong, because I can't daftly assume I know better (it would mean that I think my belief is better than yours, which I don't).

What would be different? In both cases you need a brain. You perhaps don't know that the thinking process originates in the brain but in any case there would not be much thinking without a functioning brain.
Besides the knowledge about the brain makes this a very likely conclusion.
Just a receiver would in any case not be sufficient, the brain would then also have to be a sender. We have input and output to the brain.
What is the possibility of that any way? We can have that level of certainty that such a weird possibility is not the case, we would be all robots.
Where would the receiving/transmitting station be?

I hope you don't think it a wild guess that I do not consider that a likely case..

And I don't understand exactly why you would even need to consider this, because it seems to me pretty obvious that such a case would entail far more unfounded belief then not assuming that. If one takes all such cases into consideration, one may pretty well say that anything you state about anything is a belief. But then nothing is a belief. A belief is just making a not well founded assumption about something. So to assume that one's brain is a transmitter of radiosignals seems to me entailing belief, not the other way around.

Also for the size of the universe. If not known (and assuming euclidean space), would a guess of a finite size not entail far more belief then assuming that it didn't and was infinite? The reason for that being that when assuming it would be finite, one assumes it ends somewhere, there is a boundary. But that is pretty much a belief assuming that there is then not.
Also for the geometry, when not known, assuming that is non-euclidean is less founded then assuming it is euclidean.
Any other choice is a belief, and if all possible choices would be a belief then none would be a belief.

To make things more clear, you mean to say "objective reality", because the reality I perceive isn't limited to the physical world, because I can sense things beyond my five physical senses, such as happiness, sadness, love, hate, hope, fear, anxeity, etc. All these things exist in my subjective reality, and they are subjectively true for me. With that clarification made, I agree with you, since to me, you're only speaking about the physical world.

OK.

I don't agree on some of what you say are facts. They are possibilities, much of what you argue isn't objectively true and requires a belif in order to make such conclusions.

As stated before, any other choice of something that is not known, would also be a belief.

Such as the claim that the universe is infinate, and will and has existed forever; and that a mind must exist in space-time in the form of a brain.

As argued, and given the fact that no objective knowledge was available, any other possibility would require more and less well founded belief.

When you say "we", you can't mean everybody in the world, because your claims aren't objectively true. Your claims are true to you, since you've personally experienced the things that give you this hunch.

More like an excercise in deducting from a position in which you have little or no knowledge about things some knowledge.

Yes, no matter how much you believe something to be objectively true doesn't make it objectively true. You say that minds don't depend on the world, that is enlightening. Wouldn't it imply that a mind doesn't depend on the brain, since the brain is part of the world? Or do you mean reality in general as perceived by an awareness, including the many facets of thought and emotion, which don't really exist within space-time?

Where did I say that minds don't depend on the world? Quite the contrary, the mind is dependent on the brain, etc. and not vice versa.
Without a physical working brain, there is no mind, and without a world you were born in, you would not exist in a mindfull state neither.

You're very convincing, but that's all. Why do I get the idea that you're trying to make me believe what you believe? You may not be aware that you're not being completely objective in your arguments.

It seem to me the only logical and consistent conclusion, requiring the least unfounded assumptions. Maybe not impossible to draw other conclusions, but far less likely.

The logic in this argument doesn't work. You say that since the world exists, and people don't live forever, that people's beliefs about the world can't be absolutely true. Sure, they aren't objectively true, but that doesn't imply that they aren't absolutely true, since objective truth is a subset of absolute truth.

Ok. But that is more things like arithmetics and so.
I was referring to knowledge about the fundamental nature of the world.

Because what you argue aren't objective facts, they are what you believe to be objective facts. There is a difference. What you say may be absolutely true, but it may not be absolutely true, we just don't know right now.

It appears to me that at least the flatness of the universe is more or less an objective fact.
The "size" of the universe is measured as the horizon size, but some well founded arguments exist is that the universe is at least several magnitudes larger as that.
And also in some well founded models, the universe would be conjectured to be infinitely large.
About the infinity in time, I think the position held that the singularity was a point in which the universe started is nowadays not considered a valid model.
The best guess science gives I think is that inflation is possible past time eternal.

There is no objective way of ever knowing that the universe is infinite in space or time, I guess (how at all could that be really known?). Although the past and future infinity in time of the universe I think is almost impossible not to assume, since how could it begin or end?
A start from a singularity - although it's theoretical existence can be well founded in GR - is at the same time something not to expect physically because the physics laws are known to break down there, and can therefore not be assumed to be a real physical state the universe was in. Infinity of energy density, etc. as required, are not considered a possble physical state. There is however nothing in physics that dispermits infinity in time, and looks to me almost impossible not to be the case. Arguments as that an infinite amount of ellapsed time are impossible (as argued by a kalam cosmological argument) can be shown to be incorrect, since any measure of time on an infinite time line is still a finite value, no matter where you place the points, and since you can always place them further apart, in effect time is infinite.

In your case, you have changed uncertainty with certainty. In your mind, you are certian, but that isn't being very scientific.

Yes, but I would think that is not in every situation a requirement.
Best guess and well reasoned using the least necessary amount of speculation sufices sometimes.

Again, you reiterate your belief that the world will always exist. Even if that's the absolutely true nature of the physical world, it doesn't support your claim that there is nothing else.

An eternal infinite world already contains everything, I suppose.

What else did you have in mind that could be that is not already contained in everything?

You're a believer. It takes a belief to be certain about things like this.

But when I follow your reasoning, everyone is a believer. Because whatever choice ones makes on that issues, it always ends up being a belief.

But maybe it is an essential feature of how our brains are wired and because we are natural beings. Even animals have beliefs then, because they base their actions on insufficient knowledge.

Wasn't this confirmed sometime in brain studies that our "logic gates" also try to fill gaps or make certain assumptions when insufficient knowledge is available?

Look. I'm not saying that you're absolutely wrong. I'm saying that you're objectively wrong. As soon as humankind's knowledge and understanding confirms your arguments, you'll be speaking objective truth, but until then, you're speaking your own subjective truth. I don't have a problem with your beliefs, in fact, I agree with some of them, but I do have a problem when you claim them to be objectively true. They are your beliefs of what is absolutely true, and they may or may not be absolutley true; humankind just hasn't become sophiscitcated enough with our knowledge and understanding in order to confirm or deny your claims. Do you understand what I'm trying to say about the difference between subjective, objective, and absolute truth yet?

Yes.

 

[country boy]

It seems from this thread that subjective and objective truth are achievable. But I'm not so sure about absolute truth. Given a candidate absolute truth, any proposed determination of such would be either subjective or objective.

 

[heusdens]

What I mean is that if you conclude that the universe is infinite, then you are doing so in the basis of what you believe, not on the basis of objective truth. If you didn't believe anything, then you wouldn't make such conclusions, because objectively, the universe could be finite. And so it isn't true that that is not the case, so to rule it out is not being objective (i.e. devoid of belief). Uncertainty is objectively true at this point in human knowledge on the subject, and for one to be certain of one answer shows ignorence of the other possiblility. For one to reach beyond objective truth (uncertainty in this case), and pick an answer means that one has a 'hunch', or a 'gut feeling' or dare I say a belief, which isn't known to be true objectively.

Your position may be correct in the very abstract sense, but possibly not in the more human sense is that one has to - given a certain situation in which objective knowledge is impossible - assume something.

Like the situation I explained: you are born and not yet aware. Then you start exploring things, and learn about the world, and you need to make or learn some basic assumptions about the world. Whatever they are objectively true or not.

You could not claim the rest of your life not to know anything, because everything can be uncertain. It might even not be possible to figure out wether actually the world exists.

Since we come from nature, it can be assumed that we can not exist long in a position in which we can postpone such decissions. If we would not know wether a certain animal or situation was dangerous or not, we would still make assumptions. That is how we and other animals survive. In fact I assume (which maybe is proven by brain research) that our "logic" gates we use in practice are not exactly that what the abstract mathematician or logician would have required.

At least I think that almost all animals have a limited ability to verify for certain about the nature of their world, but do not seem to be bothered by the inability to absolutely or objectively verify it.

 

[Jonny_trigonometry]

I think it is not even a logical possibility for the universe to not exist. However if it would have been the case that there was not a universe (a state of 'nothingness' - no time, space, matter) such a state would be a definitive state (ie there would not be any other state either).

In so far to say that the universe objectively exists is even meaningfull. One could also claim that wether or not the universe objectively exists is not meaningfull and/or can not be verified, given the lack of possibility of an outside observer.

I can say that an apple exist, because I have the apple as object, and I am an object for the apple. Therefore there is an objective relationship between me and the apple, and it's objective status can be verified.

However this is not the case with the universe, since no objects exist apart from the universe (by definition).

(universe is all of reality)

Straw Man fallicy. I said prove to me objectively that the universe has existed forever.

The assumption is that it has no boundary or edge. This is not exactly the same as infinite, since one could think then the universes is the 3 dimensional equivalent of a surface on a sphere (which is then just one of many assumptions, like extra dimensions, etc.).

Since there is no absolute knowledge of the geometry of the universe, it is assumed the geometry with the least assumptions (no boundaries or edges, no extra dimensions or curvature), at least I guess it would take the least amount of belief.

Yes. It doesn't take much belief at all. Neither does the other perspective, but who really cares if it is or it isn't? I understand that this discussion is something we should care about--the "where do we draw the line between facts and belief?" discussion.

It actually fits the data best (almost flat), although we can't exactly verify anything beyond the horizon.

Being flat isn't a property of being infinite, but oh well, you're headlong on this idea, you can think what you want.

If one would need to make a guess about the size of the universe, not knowing anything about actual data and special geometry or so, I think anybodys guess would be that it would be endless, because anything else assumes other circumstances (having a boundary or curvature).

Nope.

But acc. to current models, the universe can be spatial infinite in different ways. It could mean a finite size expanding space with such a rate of expansion that one could never catch up (even when traveling the speed of light) with the farthest parts of the universe.
It could mean an infinite and expanding space.
Or it could mean a multiverse universe in infinite background spacetime.
Or it could be the model of M theory brane cosmology.

Yup. There is no known objective answer.

What would be different? In both cases you need a brain. You perhaps don't know that the thinking process originates in the brain but in any case there would not be much thinking without a functioning brain.
Besides the knowledge about the brain makes this a very likely conclusion.
Just a receiver would in any case not be sufficient, the brain would then also have to be a sender. We have input and output to the brain.
What is the possibility of that any way? We can have that level of certainty that such a weird possibility is not the case, we would be all robots.
Where would the receiving/transmitting station be?

I put it leymanns terms for you. I originally typed "tranceiver" but I'm not sure you know what that means, or would bother to look it up. Whats the difference if our minds are in our brains or on 5th and hennipen? We are aware of the physical senses of the human bodies we're trapped in, does that make us robots?

I hope you don't think it a wild guess that I do not consider that a likely case..

not at all. But I do consider it a belief, since you can't objectively prove it.

And I don't understand exactly why you would even need to consider this, because it seems to me pretty obvious that such a case would entail far more unfounded belief then not assuming that. If one takes all such cases into consideration, one may pretty well say that anything you state about anything is a belief. But then nothing is a belief. A belief is just making a not well founded assumption about something. So to assume that one's brain is a transmitter of radiosignals seems to me entailing belief, not the other way around.

Thats called a subjective perception. I didn't say it is, I said it could be "like" that, but of course it's not exactly that.

Also for the size of the universe. If not known (and assuming euclidean space), would a guess of a finite size not entail far more belief then assuming that it didn't and was infinite? The reason for that being that when assuming it would be finite, one assumes it ends somewhere, there is a boundary. But that is pretty much a belief assuming that there is then not.
Also for the geometry, when not known, assuming that is non-euclidean is less founded then assuming it is euclidean.
Any other choice is a belief, and if all possible choices would be a belief then none would be a belief.

If you wanted to talk about these things, start a new thread please. You've pretty much ruined this one. Now it's all about your philosophy. Next time I invite people over, I should invite you too, so that you can come over and eat all my food!

As stated before, any other choice of something that is not known, would also be a belief.



As argued, and given the fact that no objective knowledge was available, any other possibility would require more and less well founded belief.





More like an excercise in deducting from a position in which you have little or no knowledge about things some knowledge.



Where did I say that minds don't depend on the world? Quite the contrary, the mind is dependent on the brain, etc. and not vice versa.
Without a physical working brain, there is no mind, and without a world you were born in, you would not exist in a mindfull state neither.



It seem to me the only logical and consistent conclusion, requiring the least unfounded assumptions. Maybe not impossible to draw other conclusions, but far less likely.

nevertheless, I'm trying to show you that you require a belief to conclude that, even if it is a reasonable conclusion.

Ok. But that is more things like arithmetics and so.
I was referring to knowledge about the fundamental nature of the world.




It appears to me that at least the flatness of the universe is more or less an objective fact.
The "size" of the universe is measured as the horizon size, but some well founded arguments exist is that the universe is at least several magnitudes larger as that.
And also in some well founded models, the universe would be conjectured to be infinitely large.
About the infinity in time, I think the position held that the singularity was a point in which the universe started is nowadays not considered a valid model.
The best guess science gives I think is that inflation is possible past time eternal.

There is no objective way of ever knowing that the universe is infinite in space or time, I guess (how at all could that be really known?). Although the past and future infinity in time of the universe I think is almost impossible not to assume, since how could it begin or end?
A start from a singularity - although it's theoretical existence can be well founded in GR - is at the same time something not to expect physically because the physics laws are known to break down there, and can therefore not be assumed to be a real physical state the universe was in. Infinity of energy density, etc. as required, are not considered a possble physical state. There is however nothing in physics that dispermits infinity in time, and looks to me almost impossible not to be the case. Arguments as that an infinite amount of ellapsed time are impossible (as argued by a kalam cosmological argument) can be shown to be incorrect, since any measure of time on an infinite time line is still a finite value, no matter where you place the points, and since you can always place them further apart, in effect time is infinite.

You've passed the test! congratulations. Good work, you've proven it.

Yes, but I would think that is not in every situation a requirement.
Best guess and well reasoned using the least necessary amount of speculation sufices sometimes.

Nevertheless, it is a belief since it is a claim of something not objectively certain, a very pragmatic one too I might add.

An eternal infinite world already contains everything, I suppose.

What else did you have in mind that could be that is not already contained in everything?

Um, did I? You're totally right. Everything is contained within everything. I don't know what I was thinking.

But when I follow your reasoning, everyone is a believer. Because whatever choice ones makes on that issues, it always ends up being a belief.

No and yes. No in the sense that when you're working with objective truth--things experimentally verifiable and/or logically provable to anybody--no belief is required for those provable things to be true objectively. You're speaking of things unprovable, so that's why I say you're speaking of your beliefs.

Yes is the sense that I believe subjective truth comes first to anyone person before anythng else. 1+1=2 means something to me only if I agree with the definitions, then in the use of math implies I believe it's methods will serve my interests. As long as I accept the definitions and rules, then if I adhere to them, my conclusions hold the same merit as I hold those definitions. Even if I didn't believe that 1+1=2, it still stands by itself on top of its own definitions, and is objectively true in its own right. Science works the same way, it has some rules and definitions that it rests upon, and it stands by itself, and I have the choice to believe it or not. If I lack a belief in the Scientific method, it doesn't imply that science isn't objectively true in its own right, based on it's own structure. So if I accept the scientific method, I believe all of its conclusions, regardless of the fact that they would still be objectively true if I didn't believe them.

But maybe it is an essential feature of how our brains are wired and because we are natural beings. Even animals have beliefs then, because they base their actions on insufficient knowledge.

who knows... do they?

Wasn't this confirmed sometime in brain studies that our "logic gates" also try to fill gaps or make certain assumptions when insufficient knowledge is available?

Everything that a person perceives is filtered by a part of the brain that perturbs things in such a way that we partly see what we expect to see. At least, I heard that somewhere, I haven't read the study or anything.

 

[Jonny_trigonometry]

It seems from this thread that subjective and objective truth are achievable. But I'm not so sure about absolute truth. Given a candidate absolute truth, any proposed determination of such would be either subjective or objective.

Yeah I don't know. I'm having trouble with it. I'm having trouble with the whole thing right now. Heusdens keeps littering his posts with chaff that I have to weed through.

 

[Jonny_trigonometry]

I apologize for being a jerk tonight, I had a bad day and I'm projecting my frusteration in the form of being boorish.

 

[mosassam]

Hi Jonny, about my post earlier, I read your response and realized I'd not read your comment properly. On the subject of whether the world will always exist, I would agree that to make a conclusion about it requires belief (I've heard form some the sun will one day expand and destroy the world! I've heard from others that the world is an illusion!) Belief exists where clarity fails. I did have one insight from that your reply - Uncertainty appears to be an objective, as well as a subjective, truth. However, this does not qualify it as an absolute truth (to be honest, I don't think an absolute truth can be communicated with words, maths or any other symbols)

 

[mosassam]

Any absolute truth cannot be relative. Even if we all agreed on something, some truth, it would still be relative to our own planet (as compared to someone/thing elses). Mind you - does gravity qualify as an absolute truth?

 

[heusdens]

Hi Jonny, about my post earlier, I read your response and realized I'd not read your comment properly. On the subject of whether the world will always exist, I would agree that to make a conclusion about it requires belief (I've heard form some the sun will one day expand and destroy the world! I've heard from others that the world is an illusion!)

Hold on.

The idea that the world is eternal has a scientific basis, since we have theories that declare there to be conserved quantities like mass + energy.
We have the position that this law holds, until proven otherwise.

(the destruction of the sun or whatever has nothing to do with it)

Besides, also science is not without beliefs, but those most be grounded.
For instance science has the belief that the law of gravity and other physical laws are universal, it adheres to the cosmological principle (homogeneous and isotropic).
Science makes those assumptions explicit.

 

[mosassam]

The idea that the world is eternal has a scientific basis

I can only assume that when you say 'world' you refer to the (observable) universe and not, as I and many others may interpret this word, planet Earth and everything on it.

Hold on.

Science has posited a Big Crunch or Gnab Gib (ie: the end of the universe). How 'eternal' can that be?
And doesn't science reject the notion of Time as an objective 'entity', it being a wholly abstract notion? Where does that leave eternity? In the mind of the beholder?

 

[mosassam]

Besides, also science is not without beliefs, but those most be grounded.
For instance science has the belief that the law of gravity and other physical laws are universal, it adheres to the cosmological principle (homogeneous and isotropic).

And hold on again!

In my post I stated that to conclude that the world will always be eternal requires belief. You seemed to protest this notion but then went on to say that "science is not without beliefs", including the belief that the law of gravity is universal. (and calling a belief an 'assumption' can be seen as part of the smoke and mirrors science uses to appear factual).
(I detect a Ubangi in the fuel supply - W. C. Fields)

 

[Rade]

...In my post I stated that to conclude that the world will always be eternal requires belief...

I agree. This conclusion has nothing whatsoever to do with "scientific thinking"--it is derived from pure belief. Science NEVER can make such a claim of an absolute nature (that world will always [eg., 100% of time] be eternal). By definition SCIENCE = UNCERTAIN KNOWLEDGE of [X], and never makes any claim that ends with a conclusion that any given [X] "will always be".

 

[Jonny_trigonometry]

I agree. This conclusion has nothing whatsoever to do with "scientific thinking"--it is derived from pure belief. Science NEVER can make such a claim of an absolute nature (that world will always [eg., 100% of time] be eternal). By definition SCIENCE = UNCERTAIN KNOWLEDGE of [X], and never makes any claim that ends with a conclusion that any given [X] "will always be".

yes. Why is this so hard for Heusdens to accept? *prod at Heusdens*... *poke*... *poke*

 

[mosassam]

So, any sensation, thought, feeling, experienced by an individual can be considered a 'subjective truth'. Something that cannot be refuted by anyone but which has no validity outside the individual. When a group of people agree on something we can say that this constitutes an 'objective truth', BUT ONLY FOR THAT GROUP. Other groups may have other objective truths. The group called Scientists may say that their objective truth has been experimentally proven but quantum theory seems to be indicating that the experiments scientists choose to perform reflect "who they are" (ie: subjective truth). Also, Rade's quote above ( SCIENCE = UNCERTAIN KNOWLEDGE of [X]) also reflects the shaky nature of scientific objective "truth". Science, like religion (and most adults for that matter) has a hard time saying "I don't know". Fully realising and accepting that "I don't know" (rather than groping desperately around in the dark for some kind of certainty, be it religious or scientific) may be the ultimate objective truth.
As for "absolute truth", if it exists I have a feeling it may well be something we cannot communicate, not even to ourselves.
(or not )

 

[Rade]

...So, any sensation, thought, feeling, experienced by an individual can be considered a 'subjective truth'. Something that cannot be refuted by anyone but which has no validity outside the individual...

You got it--but I would not say "has no validity"--but "uncertain validity".
There are only two ways to "know" any"thing" (1) from inside the thing, and (2) from outside the thing. If you seek to "know" any"thing" from outside as an observer, the knowledge you gain is "Uncertain Knowledge", which is the way of Science. If you want to find "Certain Knowledge" look inside yourself, ask yourself if you exist (not if you are the ONLY thing that exists, just DO I EXIST). Let me know what you find.

 

[heusdens]

I can only assume that when you say 'world' you refer to the (observable) universe and not, as I and many others may interpret this word, planet Earth and everything on it.

Universe in the broadest sense.

Hold on.

Science has posited a Big Crunch or Gnab Gib (ie: the end of the universe). How 'eternal' can that be?
And doesn't science reject the notion of Time as an objective 'entity', it being a wholly abstract notion? Where does that leave eternity? In the mind of the beholder?

Science also posited the idea of chaotic eternal inflation, requiring no begin to the universe.

The notion of the world (universe) being eternal should mean: there wasn't a time in which there was no world (universe). It is concluded from the fact that matter itself (although it can be transformed from one thing into another thing) itself is uncreatable and indestructable.

 

[heusdens]

yes. Why is this so hard for Heusdens to accept? *prod at Heusdens*... *poke*... *poke*

Accept what?

My statement reflect a philosophical notion, which happens not to be in conflict with science, that the world itself is eternal (because matter is).

It is not a belief, but a conclusion based on true premises.

 

[heusdens]

And hold on again!

In my post I stated that to conclude that the world will always be eternal requires belief. You seemed to protest this notion but then went on to say that "science is not without beliefs", including the belief that the law of gravity is universal. (and calling a belief an 'assumption' can be seen as part of the smoke and mirrors science uses to appear factual).
(I detect a Ubangi in the fuel supply - W. C. Fields)

The notion that the world (universe) itself is eternal is the only absolute.
All other notions are relative.

The way we derive at the conclusion that the world itself is eternal is because the 'alternative' (the world appearing from nothing or from a cause 'outside' the world) is just a logical absuridity.

It doesn't require a belief to state that.

If the world (the universe, all that is) is said to exist, there can not be (logically) a ground or cause outside the existing world for it's existence.

So that is why this only absolute is a safe statement to make, requiring no belief, because there is no way this can be otherwise.

(the only 'logical' possibility would be to state the possibility of a non-existing world, but that is rejected by definition - there could be no way to make such a statement, if the statement were true!)

 

[mosassam]

The notion that the world (universe) itself is eternal is the only absolute.
All other notions are relative.

The way we derive at the conclusion that the world itself is eternal is because the 'alternative' (the world appearing from nothing) is just a logical absuridity.

Firstly, to use the word "world" when referring to the universe seems wrong, in a big way (to me at least).
Secondly, do you disagree with the Big Bang model of the universe?
Thirdly, you avoided that science itself views Time as nothing more than an abstract concept (Eternity??)
Fourthly, to say that the only 'alternative' to the eternal world (universe (?)) "is" that it 'appeared from nothing' can be viewed as logical absurdity. I would venture that because you can think of no other alternatives may not be the fault of Logic.
I do not want to use the word 'Fifthly' because it seems weird (to me at least - maybe to much like Filthy) but I will say that Materialism views the interactions/relationships between matter as a product of matter. Quantum theory demonstrates that this may not be the case.

 

[heusdens]

Firstly, to use the word "world" when referring to the universe seems wrong, in a big way (to me at least).
Secondly, you adroitly avoided the scientific model of the universe that posits a Big Bang/Big Crunch (hardly eternal).
Thirdly, you avoided that science itself views Time as nothing more than an abstract concept (Eternity??)
Fourthly, to say that the only 'alternative' to the eternal world (universe (?)) "is" that it 'appeared from nothing' can be viewed as logical absurdity. I would venture that because you can think of no other alternatives may not be the fault of Logic.
I do not want to use the word 'Fifthly' because it seems weird (to me at least - maybe to much like Filthy) but I will say that Materialism views the interactions/relationships between matter as a product of matter. Quantum theory demonstrates that this may not be the case.

The term 'world' is a most common philosophical notion, which means the world in it's entirity, not just the planet earth.

We are in fact having here a statement of knowledge. All practical knowledge we have about the world is relative. Yet, it is my claim that we do have some absolute knowledge about the world, and that is that the world exists.
It is true by definition, and it does not take faith to claim it.

From that it is inferred that the world is also eternal. This is by the way not a statement about time itself, but acknowledges the fact that there is no possible way for the world not to exist.
What we consider to be a notion of time has no bearing on this logical conclusion whatsoever.

This fact about the world is a true fact and the only absolute fact.

 

[mosassam]

The term 'world' is a most common philosophical notion, which means the world in it's entirity, not just the planet earth.

Since when and by whom? The 'world' means the 'universe'?

We are in fact having here a statement of knowledge. All practical knowledge we have about the world is relative. Yet, it is my claim that we do have some absolute knowledge about the world, and that is that the world exists.

Who said the point was whether the world (universe) existed or not?

It is true by definition,

So the definition makes it true?

it does not take faith to claim it.

maybe it only takes Logic, BUT...

From that it is inferred that the world is also eternal. This is by the way not a statement about time itself,

...you say that the word "eternal" (meaning - for all Time) "is by the way not a statement about time itself". What were we saying about Logic?

This fact about the world is a true fact and the only absolute fact.

Ever heard of the word Dogma?
PS: Maybe Materialism "is" a dead end!