Can someone compute the electrical output of this machine in watts

• markzboyce
In summary: I'm going to give this a bit more leash (perhaps more than my colleagues would prefer...) so you can answer the question of the math above, but you aren't understanding conservation of energy and what a "perpetual motion machine" is. Conservation of energy tells us that when you convert energy from one form to another, the total amount of energy remains the same. So even if the machine never produces an output greater than the input, the total amount of energy used in the process is still the same.No, the answer/analysis for four, staggered balloons/umbrellas is the same as for one balloon repeated four times. Don't over-complicate the analysis. Keep it simple
markzboyce
Setting aside whether this works or not, can someone here compute the output in watts-?

markzboyce said:
Setting aside whether this works or not, can someone here compute the output in watts-?
I guess that depends; are you asking us to calculate the output while ignoring the input? I suppose we could, but why? Given that it's an obvious perpetual motion machine and would not work (produce an output greater than the input), what would be the point? Either way, I'm not sure if even this narrow request conforms to the spirit of the PF rules against discussion of PMMs. I'll leave it open for now while we decide.

Edit: I'll give you the short version since its easy: a balloon with known volume at a known depth expands linearly as it rises, so the total work done is just the starting depth times the average buoyancy (initial vs final displacement).

Last edited:
markzboyce said:
Setting aside whether this works or not, can someone here compute the output

Easy, if it doesn't work, the output will be zero. :-)

Seriously, I agree with @russ_watters . Perpetual motion machines PMM is a forbidden topic on PF.

If you think it is not PMM, tell us where the energy is coming from and where it goes to.

russ_watters
anorlunda said:
Easy, if it doesn't work, the output will be zero. :-)

Seriously, I agree with @russ_watters . Perpetual motion machines PMM is a forbidden topic on PF.

If you think it is not PMM, tell us where the energy is coming from and where it goes to.

This is NOT a perpetual motion machine. It is getting its energy from the rising force of captured air under water. The question to ask is whether it requires more energy to run it than the energy output. I personally believe the doubters here who scream PMM, PMM, PMM are the ones who do not want to discuss a machine that they do not understand or they like the idea and want to make a claim to it somewhere else.
Or, someone just doesn’t like my UN and is slandering me for the fun of it.

russ_watters said:
Edit: I'll give you the short version since its easy: a balloon with known volume at a known depth expands linearly as it rises, so the total work done is just the starting depth times the average buoyancy (initial vs final displacement).
Thanks for continuing this discussion. When considering input and output you also need to consider the energy output of multiple balloons or inverted umbrellas or whatever working in tandem as opposed to the one balloon being filled at the bottom.

You can look at this in a different way, instead of multiple balloons, just tell me the upward force of 100 cubic feet of air submerged down to 100 feet and once computed, can you convert this upward force to watts?

markzboyce said:
When considering input and output you also need to consider the energy output of multiple balloons or inverted umbrellas or whatever working in tandem as opposed to the one balloon being filled at the bottom.
No, the answer/analysis for four, staggered balloons/umbrellas is the same as for one balloon repeated four times. Don't over-complicate the analysis. Keep it simple and well organized and you will avoid making mistakes.
You can look at this in a different way, instead of multiple balloons, just tell me the upward force of 100 cubic feet of air submerged down to 100 feet and once computed, can you convert this upward force to watts?
Watts is not a unit of force, so no, there is no conversion factor for that. But 100 cubic feet (I assume at atmospheric pressure) submerged to 100 feet compresses by a factor of 3. You know the weight density of water, and I gave you the method, so you tell me the forces and mechanical work done. Pay attention to the units.
markzboyce said:
This is NOT a perpetual motion machine. It is getting its energy from the rising force of captured air under water. The question to ask is whether it requires more energy to run it than the energy output. I personally believe the doubters here who scream PMM, PMM, PMM are the ones who do not want to discuss a machine that they do not understand or they like the idea and want to make a claim to it somewhere else.
Or, someone just doesn’t like my UN and is slandering me for the fun of it.
I'm going to give this a bit more leash (perhaps more than my colleagues would prefer...) so you can answer the question of the math above, but you aren't understanding conservation of energy and what a "perpetual motion machine" is. Conservation of energy tells us that when you account for all the energy inputs and outputs, the net energy output of a system in steady state is *always* zero. So, a stand-alone machine (that doesn't harvest an external energy source like fuel) must always have a net output of mechanical work of less than zero.

This isn't about slander, it's about teaching physics and engineering to someone who maybe doesn't want to learn it. *Please* prove me wrong by doing the math and showing me the answer to your above question.

Last edited:
russ_watters said:
Watts is not a unit of force, so no, there is no conversion factor for that.
Horsepower to watts conversion
https://www.rapidtables.com/convert/power/hp-to-watt.html
1 hp(I) = 745.699872 W

russ_watters said:
I'm going to give this a bit more leash.,.,.
Thank you. This thing "idea" of mine has been haunting me for years. I was trying to find a new energy source to replace fossil fuels and this is what I came up with.
russ_watters said:
Conservation of energy tells us that when you account for all the energy inputs and outputs, the net energy output is *always* zero.
Thank you for your patience and willing to go along with this old man; for the moment at least.
russ_watters said:
So, a stand-alone machine (that doesn't harvest an external energy source like fuel) must always have a net output of mechanical work of less than zero.
The external energy source is gravity and buoyancy.
Horsepower to watts conversion
https://www.rapidtables.com/convert/power/hp-to-watt.html

1 hp(I) = 745.699872 W
Definition of buoyancy
1a: the tendency of a body to float or to rise when submerged in a fluid
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/buoyancy

noun
the power to float or rise in a fluid; relative lightness.
the power of supporting a body so that it floats; upward pressure exerted by the fluid in which a body is immersed.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/buoyancy

markzboyce said:
Horsepower to watts conversion
https://www.rapidtables.com/convert/power/hp-to-watt.html
1 hp(I) = 745.699872 W

Thank you. This thing "idea" of mine has been haunting me for years. I was trying to find a new energy source to replace fossil fuels and this is what I came up with.

Thank you for your patience and willing to go along with this old man; for the moment at least.

The external energy source is gravity and buoyancy.
Horsepower to watts conversion
https://www.rapidtables.com/convert/power/hp-to-watt.html

1 hp(I) = 745.699872 W
Definition of buoyancy
1a: the tendency of a body to float or to rise when submerged in a fluid
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/buoyancy

noun
the power to float or rise in a fluid; relative lightness.
the power of supporting a body so that it floats; upward pressure exerted by the fluid in which a body is immersed.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/buoyancy
Ok, sorry, but you aren't really trying here. You have some math in the image you posted, so you should be able to do at least some of this, and given a little prompting make an effort to actually do the calculation I suggested. Just posting links to definitions and conversion factors isn't doing that. In any case, since it is obvious this is an attempt at a perpetual motion machine, I'm locking the thread per our guidelines.

I may be willing to engage via PM, but *ONLY* if you actually attempt the calculations.

berkeman

1. How do you calculate the electrical output of a machine in watts?

In order to calculate the electrical output of a machine in watts, you will need to know the voltage and amperage of the machine. You can then use the formula P = VI, where P represents power in watts, V represents voltage in volts, and I represents current in amperes.

2. What is the difference between watts and volts?

Watts and volts are two different units of measurement for electricity. Watts measure the amount of power that is being used, while volts measure the electrical potential difference or voltage between two points.

3. Can the electrical output of a machine change over time?

Yes, the electrical output of a machine can change over time. This can be due to factors such as wear and tear, changes in the environment, or changes in the machine's components.

4. What factors can affect the electrical output of a machine?

The electrical output of a machine can be affected by various factors, such as the type and quality of components used, the efficiency of the machine, the electrical load it is powering, and external factors such as temperature and humidity.

5. Is it important to know the electrical output of a machine in watts?

Yes, it is important to know the electrical output of a machine in watts as it can help determine the amount of power it consumes and the potential energy costs associated with using the machine. It can also help with troubleshooting and maintenance of the machine.

Similar threads

• Electromagnetism
Replies
5
Views
441
• Electrical Engineering
Replies
16
Views
2K
• Electromagnetism
Replies
5
Views
1K
• Biology and Medical
Replies
4
Views
791
• Introductory Physics Homework Help
Replies
19
Views
1K
• Precalculus Mathematics Homework Help
Replies
9
Views
4K
• Electromagnetism
Replies
2
Views
4K
• Electrical Engineering
Replies
4
Views
1K
• Introductory Physics Homework Help
Replies
1
Views
1K
• Electrical Engineering
Replies
15
Views
6K