Can someone explain this derivation?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of motion equations related to a tripod under load, focusing on the geometry involved and the relationships between potential energy and the lengths of the tripod's legs. Participants express confusion about specific geometric interpretations and the application of the Pythagorean theorem versus the cosine rule.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the notation of side BC as (l-xs), questioning its implications regarding the tripod's configuration.
  • Another participant clarifies that each leg of the tripod shortens by xs under load, asserting that this relationship is generally true and not dependent on the tripod's angle.
  • There is a discussion about the potential energy of springs in series versus parallel, with a participant suggesting that the total potential energy is the sum of the individual energies of the springs.
  • Participants debate the application of the Pythagorean theorem, with one noting that the cosine rule is more appropriate for the triangle in question.
  • One participant questions whether the geometry involves right triangles, suggesting that the legs of the tripod are fixed equidistantly, which may affect the interpretation of angles and lengths.
  • Clarifications are made regarding the perspective of the diagram, with one participant correcting another's misunderstanding about the position of point B in relation to the ground.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit disagreement regarding the interpretation of the geometry involved and the appropriate mathematical principles to apply. There is no consensus on the correct approach to the derivation, as multiple interpretations and models are presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge limitations in their understanding of geometric relationships and the application of different mathematical rules, such as the law of cosines versus the Pythagorean theorem. Some assumptions about the tripod's configuration and angles remain unresolved.

whitejac
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Homework Statement


I've been looking at examples of motion derivations for my class, and it's honestly just very confusing. I heard Dynamics should prep you for this but I must have had a very poor course because we never had to understand geometry and physics to this degree...
Screenshot_2016-09-19-12-06-53.png
Screenshot_2016-09-19-12-06-42.png
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Homework Equations


Equations are listed

The Attempt at a Solution


I understand parts, and parts confuse me greatly. The thing that most confuses me is why they chose to relate side BC as (l-xs). That to me implies that the tripod is almost completely spread out flat because I cannot see how the net displacement is of any noticeable size...
I understand the relarionship between potential energy being .5 (keqx2 = 1.5kxs2 that is a relationship between springs in series, and it is saying that the resulting stiffness times the vertical displacement after mass is added is equal to the sum of individuals displaced... equally?

The real problem is in the third photo where they say the triangle's geometry related side BC to the other 2 sides. This looks like textbook pythagorean's theorem but they use 2LXCos(a) and I don't understand why...
 
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whitejac said:
side BC as (l-xs).
Each leg is shortened by xs under the load, so its new length is l-xs. This is not related to how squat the tripod is, it is true generally.
whitejac said:
that is a relationship between springs in series,
Not specifically, indeed these springs are in parallel. It is merely saying that the total PE is the sum of the PEs in the three springs.
whitejac said:
This looks like textbook pythagorean's theorem
Pythagoras' theorem only applies to right angled triangle. This is using a generalisation of it known as the cosine rule.

Edit: corrected expression in first line.
 
Last edited:
haruspex said:
Each leg is shortened by xs under the load, so its new length is x-ls. This is not related to how squat the tripod is, it is true generally.
Wouldn't that be a description of point AC then? I thought line BC was designating the horizontal displacement of point B, ie, where the tripod touches te ground with respect to its close position along the vertical axis. That would make sense to be described as it's original length minus the displacement (compression).

haruspex said:
Pythagoras' theorem only applies to right angled triangle. This is using a generalisation of it known as the cosine rule.

Wouldn't this be a case of 3 right triangles each sharing a vertical side? The problem states the legs are fixed equidistant from each other because they're all using same value for α, at least that's how I interpreted it from te image and the question. If that's not the case. Then I can easily see where I made a mistake in not using the law of cosines (which I'd forgotten because I was so set on a right triangle situation)
 
whitejac said:
thought line BC was designating the horizontal displacement of point B, ie, where the tripod touches te ground
You are misreading the perspective. It is a simple side view. The point A is the unloaded position of the top of the tripod, point B is its position under load. It is not a point on the ground. Consequently, CBA is not a right angle.
 
Ah yes. I was just typing that ah-ha! Moment. I was misinterpreting the point B.

Thank you for that! There are so many ways to describe a situation.. This is something I'm struggling with and striving to get some exposure to because it really makes deriving/applying formulas simpler.
 

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