Can the Minkowski Line Equation Explain Time Dilation in Special Relativity?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Minkowski line equation and its implications for understanding time dilation in special relativity. Participants explore the relationship between proper time (tau) and the time experienced by observers in different reference frames, addressing both theoretical and conceptual aspects of the topic.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the assumption that all observers experience time changing at the same rate 'dt', suggesting confusion about the role of proper time (tau) in different reference frames.
  • Another participant asserts that the rate at which time is experienced does not depend on the observer, referencing the principle of relativity and the equivalence of uniformly moving observers.
  • A different participant manipulates the Minkowski equation to express the relationship between proper time and coordinate time, introducing the Lorentz factor (gamma) and its implications for clock rates in different frames.
  • One participant expresses a clearer understanding of how observers perceive time in their own frames versus those moving relative to them, linking this to the concept of cosmological time and proper time.
  • Another participant challenges the term 'cosmological time' as not applicable in special relativity, emphasizing that proper time is invariant across observers and discussing the implications of moving clocks ticking slower than stationary ones.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit a mix of agreement and disagreement. While there is some clarity on the concept of proper time and its invariance, the use of terms like 'cosmological time' and the interpretation of time experienced by different observers remains contested.

Contextual Notes

Some participants express uncertainty about the definitions and implications of terms used, such as 'cosmological time', and the relationship between proper time and coordinate time in different frames. There are unresolved aspects regarding the interpretation of the Minkowski line equation and its application to time dilation.

Cakey
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Hey

If you have the Minkowski line equation of

-ds^2 = c^2 d tau^2 = c^2 dt^2 - dx^2 - dy^2 - dz^2

I don't understand how you can assume from this ^ that each observer in different reference frames will experience time changing at the same rate 'dt'. I thought that tau was the relative time experienced by each observer depending on their relative velocity :S

Am I getting confused?!

Thanks :-)
 
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The rate at which time is "experienced" does not depend on the observer. That would violate the principle of relativity which says that all uniformly moving observers are equivalent, and each of them can consider themselves at rest.

If an observer B is moving away from observer A with a speed v, then A will observe B's clocks ticking at a rate √(1 - v²) relative to A's own clocks. But observer B will also see the same thing, i.e. he will observe A's clocks ticking at a rate √(1 - v²) relative to B's clock.
 
Last edited:
You can manipulate that equation to give

[tex]\left(\frac{d\tau}{dt}\right)^2= 1 - \left(\frac{dx}{c^2dt}\right)^2 - \left(\frac{dy}{c^2dt}\right)^2 - \left(\frac{dz}{c^2dt}\right)^2= \frac{1}{\gamma ^2}[/tex]

taking square roots on both sides is easy.

In your own frame [itex]\gamma=1[/itex] so you think your clock is in synch with t. But observing another frame which is moving wrt to you, you see a difference of a factor of [itex]\gamma[/itex] in the clock rate.
 
Thanks guys, I think I'm clearer now...

So; any fundamental observer in their own frame of reference sees their clock running at the cosmological time. But then if they were to observe another observers clock which was moving relative to theirs, they would observe tau, the proper time.

So c^2 tau^2 in the minkowski line element is expressing the length of a line in some reference frame as seen from some observer in a different frame of reference? I think I've got it? Thanks :-)
 
Cakey said:
So; any fundamental observer in their own frame of reference sees their clock running at the cosmological time.

There's no such thing as the 'cosmological time', at least not in special relativity.

But then if they were to observe another observers clock which was moving relative to theirs, they would observe tau, the proper time.

If a clock is moving in some reference frame, then it will tick slower than clocks that are stationary. The proper time is an invariant; it is the same according to any observer.

So c^2 tau^2 in the minkowski line element is expressing the length of a line in some reference frame as seen from some observer in a different frame of reference? I think I've got it? Thanks :-)

I'm not entirely sure what kind of picture you're imagining here, but just in case: consider two clocks A and B which are moving relative to each other. Let the events "B reads 0s" and "B reads 1s" be denoted E1 and E2. In a frame in which A is at rest, the time that elapses between the two events E1 and E2 is 1/√(1 - v²), but the proper time 'tau' is still 1.
 

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