Can This Linear System Be Considered Stable?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around determining the stability of a given linear system represented by a specific equation. Participants explore the application of the Z-transform and the concept of BIBO stability, addressing both theoretical and practical aspects of the problem.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a linear system and attempts to analyze its stability using the Z-transform, expressing uncertainty about their approach and results.
  • Another participant suggests that stability should be determined based on BIBO stability rather than a specific input, recommending the use of the Z-transform to derive the transfer function.
  • A participant expresses confusion about obtaining transfer functions and the application of time-shifting in the context of the Z-transform.
  • There is a correction regarding the formulation of the transfer function, with one participant asserting that the correct expression involves the relationship between Y(z) and X(z).
  • One participant concludes that the transfer function is one and infers stability from this, while another disputes this conclusion, reiterating the correct transfer function form.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit disagreement regarding the interpretation of the transfer function and its implications for stability. Some assert that the system is stable based on their calculations, while others challenge this interpretation, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the definitions and calculations involved in determining the transfer function and stability, highlighting potential gaps in understanding the underlying concepts.

lucidlobster
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Homework Statement


Determine the stability of the following linear system

[itex]y(n) = 0.5x(n) +100x(n-2) - 20x(n-10)[/itex]

Homework Equations



[itex]x(n) = 0.5\delta(n)[/itex]

[itex]S=\sum^{\infty}_{k=0}\left| h(k)\right|[/itex]

The Attempt at a Solution



[itex]Z \left\{ 0.5x(n) +100x(n-2) - 20x(n-10) \right\}[/itex]

[itex]Z \left\{y(n) \right\} = \frac{xz}{2(z-1)^2}+100x(\frac{z}{(z-1)^2}-\frac{2z}{(z-1)})-(\frac{20x}{(z-1)^2}-\frac{10z}{(z-1)})[/itex]

[itex]\frac{80.5xz}{(z-1)^2}[/itex]

Now at this point we were told that there should be a polynomial in the numerator... did I go about this all wrong? Any recommend reading would be helpful as I have exhausted Google searching for a similar problem.

My original approach was simply to take the geometric series and use each coefficient from this equation if the formula [itex]\sum\frac{1}{1-a}[/itex]

My result was [itex]\approx -.47[/itex] which I though would be marginally stable as it is between -1 and 1.
 
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I don't know what you did, but typically one does not consider a specific input when determining the stability of a system; rather, one determines if the system is BIBO stable (bounded output for all bounded inputs).

Anyway, a reasonable approach is to apply the Z-transform to the equation for y[n] to get an equation for Z{y[n]} in terms of Z{x[n]} using the "time shifting" property. Then factor out Z{x[n]} from each of the terms.

To get the transfer function, divide by Z{x[n]}.

You may manipulate both numerator and denominator to get polynomials for each. If you have a number of terms with different denominators added, write them in terms of a common denominator. If the numerator or denominator have negative powers of z, mutliply the numerator and denominator by a term with a corresponding positive power of z. Similiarly, if something such as 1/(1 + z) appears in the denominator, multiply both numerator and denominator by (1 + z).
 
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I had a feeling this was a strange question which doesn't help since I don't fully understand how to obtain transfer functions in the first place.

So applying the time shift

[itex]0.5X(n) + z^{-2}100X(z) -20z^{-10}(z)[/itex]

Collect the [itex]X(z)[/itex]'s This transform is from the time shift right?

[itex]X(z)= 0.5 + \frac{100}{z^{2}} - \frac{20}{z^{10}}[/itex]

So from here I could just manipulate the numerator and denominator to get whatever it is I need, yes? Now dividing by [itex]Z\left\{x[n]\right\}[/itex] I don't understand what value that would be in this case.

The time shift was the key for me! Thank you so much for your time.
 
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lucidlobster said:
Collect the [itex]X(z)[/itex]'s This transform is from the time shift right?

[itex]X(z)= 0.5 + \frac{100}{z^{2}} - \frac{20}{z^{10}}[/itex]
This is wrong. It should be something like:

[itex]Y(z)= \left(0.5 + \frac{100}{z^{2}} - \frac{20}{z^{10}}\right)X(z)[/itex]

lucidlobster said:
...I don't fully understand how to obtain transfer functions in the first place...Now dividing by [itex]Z\left\{x[n]\right\}[/itex] I don't understand what value that would be in this case.

This is a transfer function:
[itex]\frac{Y(z)}{X(z)}= \left(0.5 + \frac{100}{z^{2}} - \frac{20}{z^{10}}\right)[/itex]
 
Ah, so it has a transfer function of one! I didn't think that it would be that easy. This also means that is stable (poles at zero) so I think we are all set. Thanks again!
 
lucidlobster said:
Ah, so it has a transfer function of one!

No, the system's transfer function is

[itex]\left(0.5 + \frac{100}{z^{2}} - \frac{20}{z^{10}}\right)[/itex]
 

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