Can you answer this unanswerable question?

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The discussion centers on the philosophical question of who created God, with participants exploring the paradox of God's existence and creation. One perspective suggests that if God were created, then something else would be the true originator, thus challenging the concept of God as the first cause. The idea that God transcends time is emphasized, positing that if God exists outside of time, then traditional notions of creation do not apply. Some participants argue that God could be self-created or has always existed, while others question the validity of time-related concepts in discussing God's nature. Ultimately, the conversation reflects deep philosophical inquiries into existence, creation, and the nature of divinity.
  • #51
Well, the evidence inside me tells me that you are wrong. See?

To point at illusionary "evidence" hidden in unreachable places, and conveniently indistinguishible from imagination, is logically rather hard to consider credible.
 
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  • #52
where does proof take place? does it take place in the experiement your doing or the journal you're reading (ie outside you) or does it take place inside when you reach that pivotal moment when you go from not being convinced to being convinced?
 
  • #53
Who made God?

The question makes 2 assumptions, both of which may be false. First assumption is the existence of God, something that is still debated on many other worlds, not just this self centered mudball. The second assumption is that he had to be made. Did anyone make that diamond crystal on you girlfriend's finger? If God exists, he did not necessarily have to be made by another higher being.
 
  • #54
Originally posted by FZ+
Well, the evidence inside me tells me that you are wrong. See?

To point at illusionary "evidence" hidden in unreachable places, and conveniently indistinguishible from imagination, is logically rather hard to consider credible.
Oh, you admit to something being inside there then?

So, how does that something inside you go about determining whether anything is correct? In other words how do you know that science is correct? Do you just assume that it is?

And yet what if you could see just as clearly about your own internal observations as science does about its empirical data? What are you to rely upon then?
 
  • #55
Originally posted by Visitor
Who made God?

The question makes 2 assumptions, both of which may be false. First assumption is the existence of God, something that is still debated on many other worlds, not just this self centered mudball. The second assumption is that he had to be made. Did anyone make that diamond crystal on you girlfriend's finger? If God exists, he did not necessarily have to be made by another higher being.
So, would you care to address how the universe can exist without a Primal Cause? :wink:

Did you know that it's possible for Eternity to exist without time?
 
  • #56
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
where does proof take place? does it take place in the experiement your doing or the journal you're reading (ie outside you) or does it take place inside when you reach that pivotal moment when you go from not being convinced to being convinced?
Yes, what exactly is it that's being convinced here? :wink:
 
  • #57
In other words how do you know that science is correct?
I don't. Science is an attitude, or a process. Is eating ice cream "correct"? In science, judgement is made by combining the totality of evidence to highlight the most likely, and least untrue theory.

And yet what if you could see just as clearly about your own internal observations as science does about its empirical data?
What if God exists? Then God would exist, would he not? This hypothetical question does not seem useful.

Science does not assume the clear objectivity of the data. Things are weighed in favour of more reliable ones, yes, but scientific debate is an attempt to play off the subjective and fuzzy elements against each other. Your "internal observations" have been devised to avoid any assessment of reliability, to avoid rational debate. That is currently their only distinguishing property, and so your internal observations are useless.
 
  • #58
Originally posted by FZ+

I don't. Science is an attitude, or a process. Is eating ice cream "correct"? In science, judgement is made by combining the totality of evidence to highlight the most likely, and least untrue theory.

What if God exists? Then God would exist, would he not? This hypothetical question does not seem useful.

Science does not assume the clear objectivity of the data. Things are weighed in favour of more reliable ones, yes, but scientific debate is an attempt to play off the subjective and fuzzy elements against each other. Your "internal observations" have been devised to avoid any assessment of reliability, to avoid rational debate. That is currently their only distinguishing property, and so your internal observations are useless.
What is so irrational to say that in order for us to observe the immaterial (on an individual basis) we have to have a piece of the that in ourselves ... "a soul" in other words? As a matter-of-fact that's the most rational thing one can possibly say if, in fact God does exist. Or else how would we know?

Yep, God gave us big brains and the last thing we "know" is how to use them ...
 
  • #59
What is so irrational to say that in order for us to observe the immaterial
Being observed <=> whatever is observed is material
we have to have a piece of the that in ourselves ... "a soul" in other words?
That it does not follow. Observing radioactivity requires a geiger counter, not an internal radioactive source. (Which would be bad for your health) It is something pulled out of the air, without any philosophical usefulness.
As a matter-of-fact that's the most rational thing one can possibly say if, in fact God does exist.
But we don't. And God may not exist. And so this argument doesn't mean anything.
 
  • #60
For clarify in your question, "Who made God?" please define what God is.
 
  • #61
Originally posted by hedons
For clarify in your question, "Who made God?" please define what God is.

That seems like quite a difficult problem to describe something outside of our physical reality.
 
  • #62


Originally posted by b11ngoo
God made God. O_O

God is wisdom. God made wisdom. The bible says God first made wisdom. Then his name is translated wisdom. So God says he first made himself. Then the Woman called Wisdom was made.

So who made God ? God himself made himself. Read my T.o.E. Thread I made. It describes digital creation. And describes God as well I believe. Since he said he made himself.

Here's the thread.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15882

Who made you ? Did you make you yet ?

I agree that something can be created from nothing. But there is no factual evidence that something that does not exist can create itself so to speak. We know that the void of space can create particles and it has been conjectured that perhaps the energy from the BB was created in this way, however, the big bang energy did not "create itself" if the theory is correct, it was created by quantum fluctuations of space.

Any book or article proclaiming to describe a god is the creation of man and none other.
 
  • #63


Originally posted by b11ngoo
Yes. I see.

Ok. How about if... the nature of the clock that started with the big bang, was the nature of God.

So. If this nature did not begin, no big bang. There is no God yet.

But he exists even then. Since the big bang clock brings him. The act of his creation is motion of the clock beginning. Zero clock time is God. Right ?

Because he is the mighty one(God), that comes from the beginning of time.

Is it so hard to believe a big bang clock may begin a mighty intelligence ?

Is God so different from A.I to a clock ? How can the clock respect A.I. and not God ?

Look at my link I gave. It describes A.I.

You've got it wrong, the big bang created the universe, it did not create god. God wasn't created until some 10 billion years(give or take a few billion) when man evolved on Earth and created the concept of god to explain things that he could not explain otherwise.

As far as the other stuff you are saying, the only thing I can say in return is:
What the hell are you talking about?
 
  • #64
what's your irrefutable proof for that statement?
 
  • #65
b11ngoo is the one that said the BB created god, so its up to him to prove it.

Making a unfalsiable claim, then demanding another to prove it's wrong else your right, is downright stupid. I think it is pretty obvious where the burden of proof lays here.

I could just as easily claim that my gym shorts are the creator of the universe, and they use their immense power to simply look like a plain pair of gym shorts. Prove me wrong!
 
  • #66
when someone claims that man created God then it sounds to me like the burden of proof is on them. until i see a proof, it's not something i will believe or disbelieve.
 
  • #67
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
when someone claims that man created God then it sounds to me like the burden of proof is on them. until i see a proof, it's not something i will believe or disbelieve.

Because by definition, a idea must originate from a human. The concept of a god is a idea, therefore it is created by man.
 
  • #68
was the idea of x-rays created or discovered?
 
  • #69
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
was the idea of x-rays created or discovered?

created by humans of course.
 
  • #70
and is that when x-rays began to exist?
 
  • #71
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
and is that when x-rays began to exist?

But were not talking about x-rays.
 
  • #72
that's very convienient of you to now, rather than before, profess that there is no comparison. why change your mind about how relevant x-rays are now rather than before when i originally asked about them?
 
  • #73
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
that's very convienient of you to now, rather than before, profess that there is no comparison. why change your mind about how relevant x-rays are now rather than before when i originally asked about them?

because we weren't and aren't talking about x-rays. We are talking about the IDEA of x-rays
 
  • #74
is your claim that man created God or created the idea of God?
 
  • #75
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
is your claim that man created God or created the idea of God?

The idea of god.
 
  • #76
No one created God. God has always been here. God = Infinite
There is no beginning to God nor any end to God.
 
  • #77
Originally posted by Death
No one created God. God has always been here. God = Infinite
There is no beginning to God nor any end to God.

Oh look here; a sweeping, unsupported claim backed by absolutely nothing but "a feeling".

God is a complex, a psychological need of humans. Believing in something does not make it true.
 
  • #78
by the same token, disbelieving something doesn't make it false.
 
  • #79
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
by the same token, disbelieving something doesn't make it false.

No but it does seem reasonable to limit belief to that which can be confirmed by observation.
 
  • #80
does one observe their "feelings"?
 
  • #81
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
does one observe their "feelings"?

I'm not sure, what are feelings?
 
  • #82
Who made whom. God's on first.
 
  • #83
Originally posted by Loren Booda
Who made whom. God's on first.

humans made god, of course.
 
  • #84
?

Oh look here; a sweeping, unsupported claim backed by absolutely nothing but "a feeling".

the belief that humans created God is a complex, a psychological need of humans. Believing in something does not make it true.

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
is your claim that man created God or created the idea of God?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deeviant:The idea of god.
Deeviant:humans made god, of course.
 
  • #85


Originally posted by phoenixthoth
Oh look here; a sweeping, unsupported claim backed by absolutely nothing but "a feeling".

the belief that humans created God is a complex, a psychological need of humans. Believing in something does not make it true.


Originally posted by Deeviant
Because by definition, a idea must originate from a human. The concept of a god is a idea, therefore it is created by man.

I don't think my statement is driven by feelings.
 
  • #86
Originally posted by Deeviant
humans made god, of course.

what's the "proof" of this statement?
 
  • #87
Could there exist beings superior to humans who created a "God" concept superior to ours, and if so, what more might it include?
 
  • #88
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
what's the "proof" of this statement?


Originally posted by Deeviant
Because by definition, a idea must originate from a human. The concept of a god is an idea, therefore it is created by man.
 
  • #89
the quote i posted wasn't about the idea of god, it was god that humans supposedly created. what's the "proof" for what i quoted?
 
  • #90
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
the quote i posted wasn't about the idea of god, it was god that humans supposedly created. what's the "proof" for what i quoted?

Its funny that you would have taken what I have said as meaning that humans have actually created a living, breathing god. Humans created the idea of god.
 
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  • #91
it's funny that you would have taken the topic of this thread to mean who created the idea of God. the topic of the thread is who created God? you answered "humans, of course" and so that's how i interpreted your interpretation of the question. who or what created God, now that we've "established" that humans created the idea of God?

i could be wrong of course about what the querant intended by asking the "unasnwerable" question...
 
  • #92
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
it's funny that you would have taken the topic of this thread to mean who created the idea of God. the topic of the thread is who created God? you answered "humans, of course" and so that's how i interpreted your interpretation of the question. who or what created God, now that we've "established" that humans created the idea of God?

i could be wrong of course about what the querant intended by asking the "unasnwerable" question...

Yawn, conversing with you is like conversing with a recording. If you think believing that a magical alien created the universe and has ultimate control of everything is the most logical conclusion, then go for it. Just do me a favor, don't call it truth.
 
  • #93
dodging the question, are we?

btw, i never claimed that nor called it truth.
 
  • #94
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
dodging the question, are we?

btw, i never claimed that nor called it truth.

No, I'm not "dodging the question" I answered the question many times. You are unwilling or unable to accept reality. You constantly dogdge near every question I send you way, only sending my pointed, unrelated and completely meaningless questions back my way. I deal with reality, if you can not handle reality then you are free to make up whatever little world you need to make you happy.
 
  • #95
then who created God? (to clarify: not the idea of God)
 
  • #96
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
then who created God? (to clarify: not the idea of God)

I don't know, what is god?
 
  • #97
and you claim you're not dodging the question? ok... ?

you've been using the word god (i can recall at least three times you've used the word) so let's start by however you've been meaning it.

just so you don't think I'm dodging your question, which is in itself a dodge of my question, i will tell you that I'm an agnostic theist. that means i believe that what i know cannot be "proved" bascially by definition. i don't have a definition of God. a definition is a limit. to say "God created the universe" implies a duality between God, creation, and the process of creation; this is an error for they are all the same thing. one *could* use that (God:=creation=all that exists) as a definition but that, to me, is not a definition. so i don't have a definiton of God and it's purposefully left undefined, as i wrote, because that would be a limit on what the finite intellect of human can't grasp.

this is now further away from this thread topic and a tangent, but the agnostic part means, to me, that i believe no one will ever give a proof that either God exists or that God does not exist. the theist part is that i know God exists. i probably can't prove to you I'm not an artificially intelligent chat-bot or recording and so i have no hope of proving to you that God exists; nor would i try to because it would take something from you to know for sure whether there is a God.

back to me not having a definiton of God, and such, know that I'm not trying to convince you of anything nor am i claiming anything. there is a circularity in the definiton of the word set in mathematics (set=collection=aggregation=improper class=family=group=...=set) none of which elucidate what a set is for they are all basically synonyms. yet you can very well talk about their existence and their nature knowing that you haven't defined what you're talking about. it works in a similar way. it's also like if i look in the dictionary under cause and effect i get for cause something which produces and effect and for effect i get something resulting from a cause thus making one wonder what cause and effect really are. yet there is an intuitive sense for what a cause and effect is. so when you answer the question "who created God", try using that intuitive sense of what you think god is. (to clarify: who created god != who created the idea of god) that is the point of this thread and anything else is just crashing the thread. if you want to start a new thread on "can you answer this easily answerable question" regarding who created the idea of God, then by all means... a better discussion would come from why mankind created the idea of God. it's not as obvious in that case...
 
  • #98
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
then who created God? (to clarify: not the idea of God)

Alright, ready for your answer? Nobody created god, because as far as anybody knows, there is no god.

I'm not going to play the whole "but you can't prove/disprove it!" game. I can't disprove the tooth fairy as there just might be one well the ability to evade all observation but that still doesn't give the tooth fairy any sort of validity.

There is a reason why human's tend to cling onto a god idea so much, because it is comforting. It makes us feel good to imagine some force out there, something that created us and gave us purpose, something that gives us life after death(tm).

If god was just a coping tool, everything would be fine and dandy. Unfortunely, people do with "god" as they do with everything else: They bungle it up. Just look at the murder and mayhem caused around the world under the banner of one god or another.

edit: addition
 
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  • #99
i'm curious... why did you need me to define god in order for you to give the answer?

Nobody created god, because as far as anybody knows, there is no god.
i know that there is a god though you don't know that.
 
  • #100
angels

Originally posted by Loren Booda
Could there exist beings superior to humans who created a "God" concept superior to ours, and if so, what more might it include?

You mean like angels? If they were superior, there consciousness would also have to be. But then the question might be. Can mind create anything that is not part of what Reality might be?
 

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