Can you explain the 2nd law of thermodynamics using closed isolated systems?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interpretation and understanding of the second law of thermodynamics, particularly in the context of closed isolated systems. Participants explore definitions, examples, and the implications of these systems in relation to entropy and equilibrium.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant requests examples of isolated open systems to understand the second law, questioning the existence of such systems.
  • Another participant clarifies that an 'open system' allows for energy and material exchange, which contradicts the definition of an isolated system.
  • A third participant agrees with the contradiction of the term 'isolated open system' and asks for clarification on the specific aspects of the second law that are confusing.
  • One participant explains that the term may refer to an isolated system with multiple interacting particle species, emphasizing the need to consider chemical potentials when discussing equilibrium.
  • A later reply reiterates the explanation about the isolated system containing multiple particle species and acknowledges a typing error regarding the term 'closed isolated systems.'

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the term 'isolated open system' is contradictory. However, there is no consensus on the best way to explain the second law of thermodynamics in relation to closed isolated systems, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding specific examples and definitions.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights potential confusion around terminology and definitions related to thermodynamic systems, particularly the distinction between open and isolated systems. There are unresolved aspects regarding the application of the second law in these contexts.

nouveau_riche
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can someone give me an example of isolated open systems ,which can allow me to understand 2nd law of thermodynamics?,bcoz i don't think there's anything called open system and that too in isolation
 
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What do you mean by an 'isolated open system'? The only meaning I've seen attached to 'open system' is that energy and material can be exchanged with its surroundings, which obviously means it isn't isolated...
 
I think you're right. To me, "isolated open system" is like saying "hot ice"; it's a contradiction. But what exactly don't you understand about the 2nd Law? If it's about the definition of entropy and what it is, you're definitely not the first to have questions.
 
The term is poorly chosen, but what it's referring to is an isolated system containing more than one species of particles that can interact and turn into one another. It's 'open' in the sense that the Nk's are not constant, and therefore to discuss equilibrium you need to talk about the chemical potentials.
 
Bill_K said:
The term is poorly chosen, but what it's referring to is an isolated system containing more than one species of particles that can interact and turn into one another. It's 'open' in the sense that the Nk's are not constant, and therefore to discuss equilibrium you need to talk about the chemical potentials.

sorry,typing error and thought mixing error,i mean close isolated systems
 

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