Entropy and the Second Law of Thermodynamics in Isolated Systems

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of entropy and the Second Law of Thermodynamics as applied to isolated systems, specifically focusing on the entropy change of an ideal gas during free expansion. Participants explore the validity of different equations for calculating entropy changes in reversible versus irreversible processes.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions which of the two equations for entropy change is correct in the context of free expansion in an isolated system.
  • Another participant clarifies that the second equation applies only when evaluating entropy change along a reversible path, emphasizing the need to devise such a path for irreversible processes.
  • A third participant notes that the equations mentioned are found in different sections of their reference material, highlighting that one equation is restricted to reversible processes and that free expansion is inherently irreversible.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of the equations for entropy change, with some emphasizing the importance of reversibility while others point out the limitations of the equations in the context of irreversible processes. The discussion remains unresolved regarding which equation should be used in the specific scenario of free expansion.

Contextual Notes

There is a noted limitation regarding the applicability of the equations to reversible versus irreversible processes, with specific attention to the conditions under which each equation is valid.

Joe Cool
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Hello,

In my textbook I read this example:
A gas in an isolated system expands after pulling out a separating plate, so its volume increases and there is no work or heat exchange.

the entropy of if the ideal gas is
$$\Delta S = n R \ln \frac {V_1} {V_2}$$

and the second law of thermodynamics is
$$\Delta S = \int \frac {\delta Q} T = 0$$

But I didn't understand which of the two formula is the true one?
 
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The second equation only applies if you evaluate the change in entropy between the initial and final equilibrium states along a reversible path between these two states. So to get the entropy change between the initial and final states (resulting from an irreversible path between the same two states), you need to devise a reversible path, and then evaluate the integral for that path. What did you think the subscript "rev" meant in the correct equation: $$\Delta S=\int{\frac{dQ_{rev}}{T}}$$

For a cookbook recipe on how to do this, see my recent Physics Forums Insights article: https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/grandpa-chets-entropy-recipe/
 
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And I'll weigh in with a note I wrote some time ago on determining entropy (because entropy can be enormously confusing). Your equations appear in sections 5 and 4, respectively. Note that section 4 is restricted to reversible processes. Free expansion isn't reversible.
 
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Thanks a lot, especially for your articles:smile:!
 

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