Car acceleration, fuel usage and kinetic energy

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between car acceleration, fuel usage, and kinetic energy, particularly focusing on how these factors interact during different speed ranges. Participants explore theoretical implications, practical observations, and the influence of various mechanical factors such as transmission and engine efficiency.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the validity of a claim that fuel consumption remains constant during acceleration from 0-30 mph and 30-60 mph, suggesting that kinetic energy increases with velocity and challenges the reasoning behind fuel usage.
  • Another participant notes that the car must deliver more power at higher speeds, indicating that fuel consumption is influenced by system efficiency, which varies with speed.
  • Transmission effects, particularly gear ratios, are highlighted as significant factors that affect acceleration and fuel consumption.
  • A participant argues that the graph depicting fuel consumption appears flat due to the units used, suggesting that a closer examination of the data shows a linear relationship with RPM and horsepower.
  • One participant presents evidence that fuel consumption is lower at 2000 RPM compared to 1000 RPM, asserting that the energy output of the engine remains constant despite perceived discrepancies in fuel usage.
  • Another participant clarifies that the fuel usage data referenced pertains to diesel engines and emphasizes that actual fuel consumption rates are lower at lower RPMs, complicating the relationship between power output and fuel consumption.
  • Concerns are raised about potential traction limitations affecting acceleration rates at lower speeds, suggesting that other factors may obscure the relationship between speed and fuel efficiency.
  • It is proposed that the engine may deliver significantly more power at higher speeds, potentially leading to increased fuel consumption that is not directly proportional to the increase in speed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between fuel consumption and acceleration, with no consensus reached. Multiple competing perspectives are presented regarding the influence of engine efficiency, transmission, and external factors like traction.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about engine performance, fuel consumption metrics, and the impact of external conditions on acceleration, which are not fully resolved. Participants reference specific data and graphs without reaching a definitive conclusion on their implications.

VivaLaFisica
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Someone said the following and it just doesn't sit right with me. How do I effectively tell them what's wrong here?

"
It applies to physics the same, as can be seen with the Kinetic Energy Formula Ke = 1/2MV^2

http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/...mustang-boss-302-vs-2011-ford-mustang-gt.html

As we can see by the track times above, it takes roughly the same time to accelerate from 0 - 30, as it does from 30 - 60 miles per hour.

http://www.frontierpower.com/library/makingsense.htm

From this graph we can see that fuel consumption of an internal combustion engine is quite flat.

So, with this in mind, we can conclude that the same amount of fuel was used to accelerate the car from 0 - 30 as it does 30 - 60.

Since kinetic energy is a product of velocity... Where is this extra energy coming from?

Either the car should take 4 times longer to achieve the velocity, 4 times the fuel, or our cars gain 400% efficiency every time you double the velocity.

“Today’s scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. ”
― Nikola Tesla
"
 
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The car has to deliver more power to the wheels at higher speeds. But the fuel consumption depends on the efficiency of the system, which also varies with speed. So you cannot directly relate fuel consumption to kinetic energy gain.
 
You also have to include the effects of the transmission in terms of gears.
 
The fuel consumption is not flat, it just looks flat in the graph because of the units used: lbm/hp-hr. The units are chosen to remove the direct impact of rpm difference.

Just picking-off some numbers and eyeballing-it, it appears to be nearly exactly linear, just like the horsepower: doubling with a doubling of rpm.

I recommend you pull the actual numbers off the graph for 1000 and 2000 rpm and compare them.
 
"
By the graph above, and this one http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/pri_bsfc_010.jpg We can see that a car actually uses less fuel at 2000 rpm than it does at 1000 rpm. Since the engine spends the same time through all RPMs of both gears, the energy the motor puts out remains CONSTANT.

Input vs output. All losses are already counted for. Why the 4 times increase in energy in the same time period with the same fuel consumption?
"
 
That fuel usage is for a diesel (your first one at least), first of all, and second of all, it's specific fuel consumption. In other words, fuel usage divided by power. Actual fuel consumption rate is lower at 1000rpm than 2000, but the increase in fuel consumption from 1000 to 2000rpm is less than proportional to the increase in power output.
 
VivaLaFisica said:
So, with this in mind, we can conclude that the same amount of fuel was used to accelerate the car from 0 - 30 as it does 30 - 60.

Since kinetic energy is a product of velocity... Where is this extra energy coming from?

Either the car should take 4 times longer to achieve the velocity, 4 times the fuel, or our cars gain 400% efficiency every time you double the velocity.

I used to think that there's some discrepancy there, too, but after looking deeper into it I have found that it is not the case. At these low speeds the results get muddled a lot by other factors, but bear in mind these main ones, just off the top of my head:

-0-30 mph and possibly even 30-60 mph might be limited by traction. It could probably accelerate much faster 0-30 mph than 30-60 mph if traction was greater, but likely the driver is either forced to let off the throttle (therefore burning less gas), or turning the extra energy into tire smoke.

-Depending on gearing and torque curve, the engine could be spinning twice as fast when at 30 mph as when at 60 mph, therefore likely delivering (correct me if I’m wrong, I didn’t go through the math) an average of ~3x as much power between 30-60 mph as 0-30 mph (and burning ~3x as much fuel).
 

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