Cascode Amplifier Small Signal Model

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around deriving the small-signal model of a cascode MOSFET amplifier circuit. Participants are exploring the placement of output voltage and the implications for voltage gain calculations, as well as the application of Kirchhoff's laws in the context of the circuit.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the placement of the output voltage, suggesting it should be referenced to ground rather than another transistor.
  • Another participant proposes that two loops should suffice for analysis and references equations from lecture notes regarding voltage relationships in the circuit.
  • Concerns are raised about the assumption that all of the current from the transconductance (gm)(vgs2) flows through ro2, with participants discussing where the current might go otherwise.
  • There is a discussion about the necessity of ground in a current loop, with some participants asserting that KVL, KCL, and Ohm's laws still apply without a ground reference.
  • A participant expresses confusion about current flow in the absence of ground, questioning whether it dissipates as heat through the resistor.
  • Another participant clarifies that current entering and leaving a node must be equal, reinforcing the concept of current continuity in the circuit.
  • One participant raises a potential contradiction when applying KCL at a different node, suggesting that not all current flows through ro2, leading to further questioning of the assumptions made in the analysis.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the assumptions regarding current flow in the circuit, particularly concerning the role of ground and the distribution of current through components. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing interpretations of the circuit behavior.

Contextual Notes

Participants are navigating complex relationships between circuit elements and their implications for current flow and voltage gain, with some assumptions about current paths remaining unverified. The discussion reflects a variety of interpretations of KCL and KVL in the context of the cascode amplifier model.

CoolDude420
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Homework Statement


Hi,

I'm just trying to derive the small-signal model of the cascode MOSFET amplifier circuit. In the lectures, we were just given the small-signal model directly. I'm trying to derive it.

I have almost the exact same thing except where I put the output voltage. In the lectures, it is put between D2 and S1,G2. However when I was deriving it, I put it between Ro2.

My derivation attempt:
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Homework Equations

The Attempt at a Solution

 

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Isn't Vo supposed to be in reference to ground, not the other transistor?
 
scottdave said:
Isn't Vo supposed to be in reference to ground, not the other transistor?
Ah yes! Thank you.

One more question, how would I go about finding the voltage gain Vo/Vi? I have no idea where to start with it because Vo is at such an awkward position.(between D2 and gnd)

I'm assuming its a KVL loop involving ro1 ro2 and vo?
 
Last edited:
2 loops should do it.
 
scottdave said:
2 loops should do it.

In the lecture notes we have,
it says that

$$V_{ro2} + V_o + V_{gs2} = 0$$
$$ V_{ro2} = (g_m)(v_{gs2})(r_{o2}) $$

How can you assume that all of the $$(g_m)(v_{gs2})$$ current flows through ro2??
 
CoolDude420 said:
How can you assume that all of the
(gm)(vgs2)​
(g_m)(v_{gs2}) current flows through ro2??

Where else is it going to go?
 
donpacino said:
Where else is it going to go?
through r01?
 
CoolDude420 said:
through r01?
how would it do that, current has to flow in a loop
 
donpacino said:
how would it do that, current has to flow in a loop
Ah yes. Just another question. If the gmvgs2 current only goes through ro2, and since there is no ground in that loop. Where does the current leave? I'm used to most circuits with a ground. I'm assuming it just disspitates through the resistor as heat?
 
  • #10
CoolDude420 said:
If the gmvgs2 current only goes through ro2, and since there is no ground in that loop.

You don't need to have ground in a current loop.

your kvl, kcl, and ohms laws still apply here. The current doesn't need to "leave" it just needs to 'complete its loop'
 
  • #11
I'm not where I can draw a picture, right now. In the loop which has r02: look at Node D2. The current entering and leaving that node must be equal, so the current through r02 must equal the source current.
 
  • #12
donpacino said:
You don't need to have ground in a current loop.

your kvl, kcl, and ohms laws still apply here. The current doesn't need to "leave" it just needs to 'complete its loop'

Ah perfect. I get it now. Thank you!
 
  • #13
scottdave said:
I'm not where I can draw a picture, right now. In the loop which has r02: look at Node D2. The current entering and leaving that node must be equal, so the current through r02 must equal the source current.

That makes perfect sense. Thank you.
 
  • #14
scottdave said:
I'm not where I can draw a picture, right now. In the loop which has r02: look at Node D2. The current entering and leaving that node must be equal, so the current through r02 must equal the source current.

I just had a second thought. Doesn't that sort of disagree if we apply KCL at the other node(S2, D1)?

I apply KCL at the the middle node on the right side(S2, D1).
KCL at S2, D1 $$ g_mv_{gs,2} + i_{r_{o1}}= i_{r_{o2}} + g_mv_{gs,1}$$
Rearranging,
$$ g_mv_{gs,2} = i_{r_{o2}} + g_mv_{gs,1} - i_{r_{o1}}$$

That is telling me that in fact, not all of the current is going through r_o2.

What am I missing?
 

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