News Censorship for criticising Bush

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The Christian rock bands MUSIC does not appeal to the demographics of the radio station - if you got a problem with that, it's something you need to take up with the progtam manager and somehow prove to him/het that the inclusion of these bands would up ratings. In the Dixie Chicks case, their MUSIC is/was not considered. Even though their sound was exactly the type of music their listeners enjoyed, they were taken of the playlist as a result of political censorship. Now that is wrong in my view.
The radio station is privately owned. They are under no obligation to play music that agrees with demographics of any sort. If the owner of the station simply doesn't like Christian rock, or the message that they deliver, he should be able to choose a different format. Do you not agree?

How can you advocate forcing a station or programmer to play music they, for whatever reason, don't want to play? Where is their freedom?

If anything, the radio station owner is exercising his right to free speech. He is telling his audience how he feels about the Dixie Chicks' stance, and his means of expression is to not play their music. You are in favor of freedom of expression, right?

Isn't that the same as them giving an interview and airing their views? I say yes coz they're both media publicity and my argument at the beginning was that even this is being censored.
I am not sure what you mean, so let me re-phrase my stance. The Dixie Chicks' right to free speech is not being usurped because they still have many avenues to publish their views. Hell, they can create their own radio stations and broadcast their views 24 hours a day if they wish. What they cannot do is force someone else to carry their message for them.
 
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JohnDubya said:
Here's an example: Jimmy the Greek made comments about Black athletes that many felt were racist. So his network (NBC, I think) fired him. Should the network have that right? Should a tv reporter be allowed to make any statement they wish without losing employment? What if they repeatedly drop the N-bomb when being interviewed?
Aren't you comparing Apples and Oranges? Does racism equate to govt. policy?? When you'e being racist, you're voilating human rights. When you criticise your govt. for going into a war; esp. this one where the reason used (WMD) was proved to be false; you're criticising a "worker" you have elected to run the country.

Let's extend that. Elected officials are, basically, accountable to the people. After all, in a democracy, YOU decide who runs the country. In simple terms, you're the boss of the govt. NOT vice versa. By criticising, you're telling your "employee" (in this case the govt.) that they're doing a bad job. However, you, as the boss here, are being told to shut up. Somethings wrong here, don't you think??
 
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Aren't you comparing Apples and Oranges? Does racism equate to govt. policy?? When you'e being racist, you're voilating human rights.
That is simply false. A person can espouse racism to any extent he wishes and never violate anyone's human rights. If a reporter drops N-bombs, no one's rights are violated. So this is not apples and oranges whatsoever. In both cases, the question revolves around the airing of one's personal views, whether it be war, race, ... whatever.

In essence, you are reserving the freedom of speech for certain issues, but not others. That is inconsistent.

However, you, as the boss here, are being told to shut up. Somethings wrong here, don't you think??
Sure, if you are being told by the employee (the government) to shut up. But the First Amendment already covers that case.

The owner of the radio station playlist is not the government. So your analogy does not hold. If anything, your analogy is telling us that we have two bosses. One boss of the employee is asking another boss of the employee to publicize a message about the employee, but the latter boss refuses. That is within the latter boss' rights.
 
JohnDubYa said:
If it's my damn company, I can fire those that make public statements contrary to my values and beliefs. Why not?
Its hard to take this sort of comment seriously.


JohnDubYa said:
What if they repeatedly drop the N-bomb when being interviewed?
:confused: Right. I really don't know what you mean.


JohnDubYa said:
They could be working on the campaign with their wife, who happens to be a supporter. So what then? Can you answer to this hypothetical situation?
Again, so what? He expresses his views - how scarey for the candidate! What's so threatening about allowing someone to express an opposing view, John? And look, life is too short to be answering minor hypothetical questions :frown:


JohnDubYa said:
Such as? Let's work with some real examples.
You want me to list examples of how cultural values are reflected in the classroom? Seriously? :zzz:
 
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JohnDubYa said:
If anything, your analogy is telling us that we have two bosses. One boss of the employee is asking another boss of the employee to publicize a message about the employee, but the latter boss refuses. That is within the latter boss' rights.
I think you're mixing up your apples and oranges here. You're confusing the radio issue with my argument. The above argument is between the govt. and the people.

I was just provided an analogy to show you what power the govt. does have. We have given the govt. the power to take certain decisions. But, as the govt. IS accountable to the people in a democracy, when the govt. "step's out of line" as such, they should be repriimanded and put back into line.
 
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Shahil said:
When you'e being racist, you're voilating human rights.
I am sorry, but I must have missed something. What does this statement mean?
 
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Again, so what? He expresses his views - how scarey for the candidate! What's so threatening about allowing someone to express an opposing view, John? And look, life is too short to be answering minor hypothetical questions
It can cost the candidate the election. Remember Schwarzenegger firing his campaign finance manager earlier this year? Arnie took a hit in the polls when the manager advocated raising property taxes, contrary to Arnie's political platform. So this is hardly a hypothetical question.

And you have yet to answer my question about what should happen to a prominent tv reporter that makes blatantly racist statements to the public? Should the network have the right to fire that reporter? Let's hear it.
 
kat said:
Sorry, but I think you're mistaken here. I'm pretty sure that Bush actually followed Clinton's example. So, They're actually taking after Clinton.
This is what I've found on that:
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2003_10_19_dneiwert_archive.html
"There's also some evidence of excluding protesters from designated public forums during President Reagan's tenure -- the cases we've actually seen involved Vice President Bush. And then we've got one reported case involving President Bush out of Ohio, and then one documented instance during Clinton's administration involving an attempt at excluding anti-abortion protesters from the Inaugural parade route in January of 1997. And that was smashed by the court.

"Clearly the number of uses of this kind of protest zone by a presidential administration has increased dramatically under the current White House. It didn't start with them -- I think since Nixon, there were isolated examples of this. This is the first time where we've really had a sufficient number of complaints to say that there really appears to be a pattern here."
 
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Its hard to take this sort of comment seriously.
Well try harder and respond, if you please.


Right. I really don't know what you mean.
Ace reporter for KKDH is being interviewed on tv. Ace reporter claims that in his opinion Blacks are an inferior race. Should KKDH have the right to fire that reporter?
Yes or no?

You want me to list examples of how cultural values are reflected in the classroom? Seriously?
Yes, let's work with some real examples.
 

russ_watters

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Shahil said:
That's what I can see going on now - As has been posted, the Dixie Chicks were banned from 42 odd stations. So where can you here them then? Ja, they're free to shout their mouths off (paraphrasing JohnDubya :wink: ) but where can they do it?? Sure, their opinions may not be educated ones but they should be allowed to make it in the same way they pro-Bush opinions were made on the 42 radio stations not playing them.
I don't think "banned" is the right word. 42 stations had their listeners bombard them with complaints and thus stopped playing the Dixie Chicks rather than lose money.
The Christian rock bands MUSIC does not appeal to the demographics of the radio station - if you got a problem with that, it's something you need to take up with the progtam manager and somehow prove to him/het that the inclusion of these bands would up ratings. In the Dixie Chicks case, their MUSIC is/was not considered. Even though their sound was exactly the type of music their listeners enjoyed, they were taken of the playlist as a result of political censorship.
No. The Dixie Chicks became unpopular with the listeners, so the music was pulled. If Creed announced that they are Christian and their music is, in fact, about Christianity (they deny it, but it really seems like it is), the same thing would happen (not as dramatic, but it would happen). Regardless of the quality of the music, listeners often make choices based on their opinion of the band itself.

I also don't see why its hard to make the connection between one group (Dixie Chicks) who'se beliefs rather suddenly became unpopular (when they started making them an issue) and a class of groups (Christian rock) who don't ever get serious consideration because of their beliefs.
 
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BobG

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JohnDubYa said:
I think people misunderstand what we mean by freedom of speech. Essentially, the *government* cannot prohibit certain views from being aired. This amendment has little to do with the private sector.

All you have to do is think about this logically. If you walked into your boss' office and called him a lousy jerk, should he not be able to fire you? If you are working on the Kerry campaign and you stated publically that you are a Bush supporter, can they not dismiss you?

Another example: If a public school teacher tries to indoctrinate his students into a certain political view, they should be fired. (At the university level, things are a little different.)

In fact, Scharzenegger fired one of his campaign advisors because he espoused certain views on taxation that were contrary to his campaign platform.

Just think about it.
the number 42 said:
True, but what if the Pope excommunicated Kerry for his views on abortion? Or if your boss penalised you for saying (or posting) something political during office hours? I would agree that having an entertainer use the stage as a soap box isn't what most people call entertainment - especially if you don't agree with the views, as in the case of the Dixie Chicks' audience - but the penalty should fit the 'crime'. Let the audience vote with their feet.
There's a fuzzy line on these and I'm not sure either of you have it quite right.

The average person only needs to separate work from non-work.

Yes, your boss can fire you for disrupting the work environment with issues that have no relevance to your work. Actively campaigning for one of the candidates or trying to recruit members into your religion could both fall into this category.

No, your boss can't fire you for your political or religous views, even if you advocate those views publicly outside of work, UNLESS you're also making an effort to let everyone know who you work for when you air those views. You don't have the right to represent the company or use them in your views (neither positively nor negatively).

A Kerry campaigner couldn't be fired for being a Bush supporter, but he could be fired for standing in the Kerry campaign office and saying he was a Bush supporter on TV. He's actively damaging the efforts the office is trying to accomplish.

Celebrities are a different breed, since their public persona is the commodity being bought or sold.

The Linda Ronstadt situation is a slam dunk - she should have concentrated on doing what she was paid to do. (I still like her music)

Actively suspending the Dixie Chicks from radio playlists because of their political statements is a little fuzzier. The only true justification is the possibility that playing their songs might imply that the Dixie Chicks were representing the station's political views and that line of reasoning is a little thin. (But, I never listened to them, anyway)

Firing a reporter/commentator/DJ for making public political or racist statements is a little stronger case. Since the employee's public persona is the service the station is purchasing from the person, the employee's public image is a little more relevant. In other words, there's a reasonable possibility the reporter/commentator/DJ's views may be interpreted as representing the station.
 
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Actively suspending the Dixie Chicks from radio playlists because of their political statements is a little fuzzier. The only true justification is the possibility that playing their songs might imply that the Dixie Chicks were representing the station's political views and that line of reasoning is a little thin. (But, I never listened to them, anyway)
They don't need to justify it. The radio stations are privately owned. The owners are under no obligation to play music by an artist.

When Cat Stevens made his comments about Salman Rushdie, many radio stations banned the playing of his music. That is in their right. There is nothing fuzzy about it.
 
JohnDubYa said:
What if they repeatedly drop the N-bomb when being interviewed?
This is what you posted that I don't understand. I understand the rest of what you posted, but the above quote seems odd. Does it mean anything, or were you just being surreal?
 
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Can someone else tell him? I don't want to be accused of anything sordid.
 

russ_watters

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the number 42 said:
This is what you posted that I don't understand. I understand the rest of what you posted, but the above quote seems odd. Does it mean anything, or were you just being surreal?
Here's the quote:
Here's an example: Jimmy the Greek made comments about Black athletes that many felt were racist. So his network (NBC, I think) fired him. Should the network have that right? Should a tv reporter be allowed to make any statement they wish without losing employment? What if they repeatedly drop the N-bomb when being interviewed?
If you don't know what th "N-bomb" is, its a more derogatory derivative of "negro." The problem is that blacks tend to use it all the time - but if a white uses it, its racism (it usually is anyway). In short, Jimmy the Greek was fired for using language considered by many to be racist.
 

NateTG

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JohnDubYa said:
They don't need to justify it. The radio stations are privately owned. The owners are under no obligation to play music by an artist.

When Cat Stevens made his comments about Salman Rushdie, many radio stations banned the playing of his music. That is in their right. There is nothing fuzzy about it.
Actually, it's not that easy. Radio stations have a government sponsored monopoly on a particular bandwidth. This would not be a real problem if there were unlimited bandwidth available, but, unfortunately, regulations only allow a fixed number of radio stations in a particular market. Consequently, if I wanted to broadcast otherwise legal material, but the radio stations refused to, I would not be legally able. Compare this to paper publishing where, if push comes to shove, I can always print my own paper.

Admittedly, it's not cut and dried that radio, or television, stations are actually government monopolies, but if you accept that the radio stations are, then the radio stations must be subject to the same requirements and scrutiny that other government monopolies are subject to, and consequently, that they must standardize the way that they make airtime available.

A second issue is that, in addition to broadcasters being a de facto government monopoly, there are legitemate freedom of the press issues about denying access to the mass media to people.

P.S.
"Banned" is probably a poor choice of words, "ceased playing" would be more appropriate, and, I think, more accurately describes your position.
 
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Hasn't the government set up public radio to air views from the citizenry? If the Dixie Chicks asked (say) National Public Radio to air their songs to support a particular view, and NPR refused, who is doing the censorship then?

BTW, Jimmy the Greek never said the "n word." Here is an interesting sidenote:

________________



More than three days after "CBS Evening News" anchorman Dan Rather invoked an anti-black stereotype in a nationally broadcast radio interview, the network refuses to comment on complaints over the incident, in marked contrast to the way it handled a similiar episode 13 years ago involving the late CBS Sports commentator Jimmy "the Greek" Snyder.

On Jan. 15, 1988, Rather himself aired video shot that afternoon at Duke Zeibert's restaurant in Washington, D.C., featuring Snyder explaining why he thought African-Americans excelled in sports.

"The black is the better athlete," The Greek said. "And he practices to be the better athlete, and he's bred to be the better athlete because this goes way back to the slave period. The slave owner would breed this big black with this big black woman so he could have a big black kid. That's where it all started."

Though the film was shot by WRC-TV, the Washington affiliate of network rival NBC, and WRC reporter Ed Hotaling acknowledged that The Greek had said he was speaking off the record during the interview, Rather decided Snyder's remarks deserved national coverage.

During the "CBS Evening News" broadcast, the politically correct newsman noted his network had received hundreds of complaints about Snyder's remarks. He ended the segment with Snyder's abject apology.

"I'm truly sorry for my remarks earlier today and I offer a full, heartfelt apology to all I may have offended," Rather quoted Snyder as saying.

Despite the apology, the CBS newsman's prominent coverage of his colleague's faux pas helped seal Snyder's fate. After The Greek's off the record remarks were turned into national news, black organizations from coast-to-coast felt compelled to comment.

The Urban League called Snyder's statement "ludicrous" and suggested he shouldn't be on-the-air. The NAACP was more direct, calling on CBS to fire The Greek, saying his comments "could set race relations back 100 years or more."

The next day, Rather's network handed Jimmy the Greek his walking papers.

Thirteen years later the shoe is on the other foot.

"They got the willies, they got the Buckwheats," Rather blurted out to radioman Don Imus Thursday, while explaining why his bosses had caved to outside pressure and forced him to cover the Chandra Levy-Gary Condit story.

Minutes after NewsMax.com reported Rather's verbatim comments, e-mail began to pour in saying the anchorman had slurred African-Americans by likening his bosses' cave-in to Buckwheat, the easily-frightened black character from "The Little Rascals."

Over the weekend, the nation's most prominent conservative black minister, Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson, head of the Brotherhood Organization of a New Destiny (BOND), slammed the CBS anchorman for his "Buckwheat" remark, saying it was so offensive that Rather shouldn't be allowed to get away with it.

As the protests pour in, will CBS brass decide to give Dan Rather the same treatment they gave Jimmy the Greek?

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/cbsfired.htm [Broken]
 
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Njorl

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JohnDubYa said:
Hasn't the government set up public radio to air views from the citizenry? If the Dixie Chicks asked (say) National Public Radio to air their songs to support a particular view, and NPR refused, who is doing the censorship then?

BTW, Jimmy the Greek never said the "n word." Here is an interesting sidenote:

________________



More than three days after "CBS Evening News" anchorman Dan Rather invoked an anti-black stereotype in a nationally broadcast radio interview, the network refuses to comment on complaints over the incident, in marked contrast to the way it handled a similiar episode 13 years ago involving the late CBS Sports commentator Jimmy "the Greek" Snyder.

On Jan. 15, 1988, Rather himself aired video shot that afternoon at Duke Zeibert's restaurant in Washington, D.C., featuring Snyder explaining why he thought African-Americans excelled in sports.

"The black is the better athlete," The Greek said. "And he practices to be the better athlete, and he's bred to be the better athlete because this goes way back to the slave period. The slave owner would breed this big black with this big black woman so he could have a big black kid. That's where it all started."

Though the film was shot by WRC-TV, the Washington affiliate of network rival NBC, and WRC reporter Ed Hotaling acknowledged that The Greek had said he was speaking off the record during the interview, Rather decided Snyder's remarks deserved national coverage.

During the "CBS Evening News" broadcast, the politically correct newsman noted his network had received hundreds of complaints about Snyder's remarks. He ended the segment with Snyder's abject apology.

"I'm truly sorry for my remarks earlier today and I offer a full, heartfelt apology to all I may have offended," Rather quoted Snyder as saying.

Despite the apology, the CBS newsman's prominent coverage of his colleague's faux pas helped seal Snyder's fate. After The Greek's off the record remarks were turned into national news, black organizations from coast-to-coast felt compelled to comment.

The Urban League called Snyder's statement "ludicrous" and suggested he shouldn't be on-the-air. The NAACP was more direct, calling on CBS to fire The Greek, saying his comments "could set race relations back 100 years or more."

The next day, Rather's network handed Jimmy the Greek his walking papers.

Thirteen years later the shoe is on the other foot.

"They got the willies, they got the Buckwheats," Rather blurted out to radioman Don Imus Thursday, while explaining why his bosses had caved to outside pressure and forced him to cover the Chandra Levy-Gary Condit story.

Minutes after NewsMax.com reported Rather's verbatim comments, e-mail began to pour in saying the anchorman had slurred African-Americans by likening his bosses' cave-in to Buckwheat, the easily-frightened black character from "The Little Rascals."

Over the weekend, the nation's most prominent conservative black minister, Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson, head of the Brotherhood Organization of a New Destiny (BOND), slammed the CBS anchorman for his "Buckwheat" remark, saying it was so offensive that Rather shouldn't be allowed to get away with it.

As the protests pour in, will CBS brass decide to give Dan Rather the same treatment they gave Jimmy the Greek?

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/cbsfired.htm [Broken]

I googled <"the buckwheats" -rather> and came up with only plants. If this is a racial slur, Dan Rather is the only one who seems to have ever used it.

NewsMax.com claims links to the NAACP decrying the use of the term in other circumstances, but the links do not actually go anywhere.

I don't even think you can say for sure that he was talking about the "Little Rascals" character. I had heard the term "buckwheat", referring to literally getting the sh*t scared out of you, but never connected it to the kid in the old TV show. Sounds to me like right-wingers grasping at straws.

Njorl
 
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russ_watters

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Njorl said:
I had heard the term "buckwheat", referring to literally getting the sh*t scared out of you, but never connected it to the kid in the old TV show. Sounds to me like right-wingers grasping at straws.

Njorl
So.....you don't know where it came from, therefore right-wingers are grasping at straws? Hmm....
 
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loseyourname

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Dissident Dan said:
Are you serious? So they're taking after bush? (Bush has been doing that consistently for his public appearances). Damn, maybe Nader is right.

This is a ridiculous violation of the 1st Amendment.

BTW, got a link?
Do you think this is something new? The DNC did the same thing 4 years ago here in LA, forcing all the protests into Pershing Square, almost half a mile from the Staples Center.
 
russ_watters said:
If you don't know what th "N-bomb" is, its a more derogatory derivative of "negro." The problem is that blacks tend to use it all the time - but if a white uses it, its racism (it usually is anyway). In short, Jimmy the Greek was fired for using language considered by many to be racist.
Given that the thread is about cencorship for criticising Bush, this is almost certainly a side issue. However, it does illustrate that when censorship (or in this case self-censorship) is enforced, confusion and misunderstanding follow.

In an open society, what we need is clear and open discussion of politics. This does not include trading insults, but should allow for people to have an equal platform to express their views in a civilised manner. In a land that champions freedom of expression, is this a tall order?
 
And for the record, I had never heard the term 'N-bomb' before yesterday. :rolleyes:
 
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Why are you all nit-picking around racist slurs. The bottom line is THEY SHOULD NOT BE USED IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE!!!!!!!!!! end of story! If you use them, you should be reprimanded. There usage is based on simply belittling and insulting a fellow human being for no reason whatsoever. Race and skin colur is NOT a reason because, we all are human beings - nothing more, nothing less.

Political comment, though, is based on something. The present system of politics seems to be causing a problem (In this case - the whole Iraq thing) and since, in your view, this is a problem, you are speaking out to say that it is a problem and one that you would expect to be fixed.
 

russ_watters

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the number 42 said:
Given that the thread is about cencorship for criticising Bush, this is almost certainly a side issue. However, it does illustrate that when censorship (or in this case self-censorship) is enforced, confusion and misunderstanding follow.
I tend to agree - I was just explaining the quote.
 

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