- #36
Loren Booda
- 3,125
- 4
The poll should also have asked the respondents to name the head of state of their favored country - an indication of how well informed they really are, and whether they are judging leaders in lieu of citizenry.
Ha, nice call. I bet a lot of people won't be able to name more than USA, Russia and their native country. Be interesting to see how many who preferred china could name it's leader. Would make for an interesting show of weather their isolationism is one of the causes of them not being targetted as much as the USALoren Booda said:The poll should also have asked the respondents to name the head of state of their favored country - an indication of how well informed they really are, and whether they are judging leaders in lieu of citizenry.
Mercator said:And China does not interfere abroad to protect economic interests like the US does..
Smurf said:Ha, nice call. I bet a lot of people won't be able to name more than USA, Russia and their native country. Be interesting to see how many who preferred china could name it's leader. Would make for an interesting show of weather their isolationism is one of the causes of them not being targetted as much as the USA
fourier jr said:hu jintao
i would say that since chinese firms have made bids for maytag & unocal they are maybe not so isolationist as people think. at least it's 2 powerful(ish) countries trying to screw each other over rather than one powerful & one weak.
Ron_Damon said:You're very naive if you think so. China opposed meddling with the genocide going on in Sudan because of their oil interests there. Also, they blocked the sending of desperately needed UN help to central America after a devastating natural disaster as a way of punishing them for having recognized democratic Taiwan.
It is just that China's ruthlessness in world affairs flies under the radar of an ultra-leftist, ultra-anti-american news media, but it is real, and as time passes it will be impossible to keep ignoring.
Mercator said:I am not naive. That is a statement based on nothing but your own bias. Have you seen any Chinese army invading overseas lately? I wonder why there is so much ahte and misunderstanding about the Chinee, maybe people like you should come and live here for a while, open your eyes.
Ron_Damon said:No, you are getting me wrong. I am a profound admirer of China and its civilization. And I would LOVE to visit the country. Yet, truth is truth, and saying that unlike the US they play nice is just plain false. And they have occupied and brutally subjugated plenty of territory, most recently Tibet and Xinjiang, and their menacing of democratic Taiwan is appalling.
Still, I am as big a fan of China as can be, and welcome their rise as the next world power. I believe that their eagerness to learn from others will eventually guide their path well.
Heh - I agree with your comparison, but not your opinion. Not being afraid to offend people when saying what she really believes is about the only thing I like about her! :rofl: Too many politicians use a lot of words to say little to nothing or make empty promises in an effort to sound good and not offend anyone. At the end of the day, they are just vessels of hot air.McGyver said:As an impartial observer, I can liken George W. Bush's condescending style of speaking to that of Hillary Clinton's, when she was the first lady. Though her presence and style has improved, both have had a tendency to willfully offend their audience. Just because you are the President or first lady, it doesn't give you a free pass to offending your listeners.
Just saw the thing on prisons affecting the US unemployment rate:fourier jr said:as with so many other things, truth is stranger than fiction:
Mercator said:Anyone familiar with the situation in China, knows that it has very little to do with Communism nowadays. It's just waiting for somebody with the courage to finish the masquerade and throw the term "communism" overboard. Of course, that does not make China a democratic country, but my humble opinion after 7 years in China and decades of contacts with Chinese is that the present system works for the Chinese. It is not a pure dictatorship either, unlike NK f.e. And above all, as I said before, they make progress in all fields. Yes, you should come, and if you do I would be glad to show you around.
Great, but what do you mean with "as Europe dies"? Europe has never been so healthy, it has brought new (relative) welth to it's neighbors in the east and is now integrating them in the "network Europe" to become the largest economic block in the world. I would like to see the US do for Mexico, Nicaragua, Columbia(just to name a few) what Europe has done for the former East block countries, or incite an unprecedented democratic reform of an islamic country, like what is happening in Turkey. The rise of China goes hand in hand with Europe's. It brings them mutual benefits and Europe is now the biggest trading partner of China. The US could do the same, but for the moment prefers confrontation. Did you follow how the EU solved the textile dispute with China? Anyway, it's my firm conviction that some day the US will follow the EU in it's approach. Already many pragmatics in the US acknowledge that the European way is working.Ron_Damon said:I agree with you that calling China a "Communist" country is a gross misrepresentation, and also think that an "enlightened despotism" will work very well for them in the medium term. I have faith they will move slowly but surely, "crossing the river by feeling the stones", into an increasingly more liberal and open society. Their future is bright indeed. It is a beautiful sight, as Europe dies, history coming back to the land where its sun first rose to be rejuvenated and rekindled. What will the future uncover?
If I am ever so lucky to experience the Middle Kingdom in person, I might just take you up on that invite
Mercator said:Great, but what do you mean with "as Europe dies"?
I think you couldn't be further off. What you state here is of course just a repetition of what you read daily in the US mainstream media. There is a clear shift to the right in Europe and I have no idea how you can claim the opposite. The former east block countries liberalized their economies to be ccepted in network Europe, not the US. Now, Europe is not a finished project, that I agree. But it is doing much better than what You and many other Americans think. I can now start citing facts and figures, but let me refer to someone who does it better than I: Mark Leonard. (www.markleonard.net) or better , read his book: WHY EUROPE WILL RUN THE 21 st CENTURY. If you would have the guts to read it with an open mind, it will provoke you to think differently. It's not as entertaining as watching Fox though, I must warn. And please stop this ridiculous game of name calling. Europe is not leftist, just as the US is not fascist. No black and white please!Ron_Damon said:Europe is very sick with Leftism, and I don't think they'll be making it through. What you see happening in the east of Europe is very definitely not a consequence of its integreation with western Europe. Quite the contrary. The model for the ex-communist countries has been the United States, in stark opposition to the failed socialist model of Germany, France and Italy. Many of those newly-industrializing economies, including Russia, now even sport a flat-tax, probably the most eloquent statement of rejection of the progressive socialist paradigm old Europe represents.
Recently I saw an interview in the BBC with the economy minister of a baltic country, where he chastised "old Europe" for failing to liberalize their economies. His country, he explained, like many other eastern European nations, has pursued a very profound policy of economic liberalization, ridding it of burdensome and irrational government intervention, with spectacular growth to attest to their effectiveness.
Meanwhile, old socialist Europe is knee-deep in a trap of high unemployment, low growth, low productivity-growth, high government debt (Italy's is more than 100% of its GDP!), and a looming catastrophe when their over-generous welfare system finally collapses.
And this is not a secret. Most economists have repeatedly warned the European public that what they have going on is not sustainable, and will not be resolved unless serious market-oriented reforms are implemented. The head of the IMF even joked that "if the Europeans want to see an economic recovery, they will have to see it on TV".
Ominously, Europe has chosen to ignore reason, and hide behind Left-wing superstitions. A new dark age is upon them my friend. The new Leftist religion will take the burden of thought and rationality off their shoulders. Marx's specter lays triumphant across that once proud and dynamic civilization.
Mercator said:I would like to see the US do for Mexico, Nicaragua, Columbia(just to name a few) what Europe has done for the former East block countries
lurathis said:I agree completely, but just as a nit-picky note, I believe you mean Colombia (It's more of a pet-peeve than anything else I guess... it's just that being Colombian and seeing your country constantly spelled like a US/Canadian city get's on that pet-peeve list real fast).
Mercator said:I think you couldn't be further off. What you state here is of course just a repetition of what you read daily in the US mainstream media. There is a clear shift to the right in Europe and I have no idea how you can claim the opposite.
In May, the European Union celebrated the accession of 10 new members. In one fell swoop, by adding their combined GDP to that of the current EU-15, Europe had finally caught up to the United States in economic size. Both economies at present have an annual income of around $11 trillion. Their per capita incomes differ significantly, with the European Union spreading the same income over 170 million more people. Nonetheless, for symbolic as well as practical reasons, the achievement of parity between the EU and U.S. economies marks a milestone.
This parity, however, is not going to last. Given differentials in demographics (both fertility and immigration rates) and in productivity growth that will persist for the foreseeable future, American economic growth will outstrip European growth. Absent some change in current trends, the U.S. economy will be nearly 20% bigger than the enlarged European economy in 2020.
Let me bgin with your last statement. You have no clue about the nature of European politics, but your prejudice coming from god know where that Europe is leftist. You have no facts or arguments to defend this and therefore use a platitude in stead. Your reference to Bush proves absolutely nothing. Most governments in Europe are not run by socialists and the big exception, Tony Blair is not excatly the example of a leftist, is he? So much for that nonsense.Ron_Damon said:My conclusions are not based on "the media", but on many years of study of economics, sociology and history. The diagnosis and prognosis in the economics issues also represent the consensus of the many scientists that have looked at the the problem. The sociological interpretations are mine though
Take a look at this:
http://www.brookings.edu/fp/cuse/analysis/posen20040901.htm
Also, saying Europe is not Leftist is like maintaining that Bush is a Moslem. Did you not see the "No" campaing in France against the EU constitution? What they voted against was "neo-liberalism". They very desperately want to keep spending billions on farmers.
Ron_Damon said:Also, saying Europe is not Leftist is like maintaining that Bush is a Moslem.
Ron_Damon said:Did you not see the "No" campaing in France against the EU constitution? What they voted against was "neo-liberalism". They very desperately want to keep spending billions on farmers.
Productivity? OK! The productivity of the US is slightly higher than that of the EU on avarage (countries like France, Belgium and Holland have higher productivity than the uS) With one difference: workers in the US work 25 % longer. Or the hourly productivity of the EU is almost 25 % higher than the US. Or, if we would work as unproductive as you, we would not have enough workforce.Ron_Damon said:If you want to isolate economic growth from the demographics variable you use change in productivity as a way to measure economic activity. That's why the paper I cited mentions "differentials in productivity growth".
Also, no, economic growth is inversely proportional to the price of oil, not the other way around. And military spending contributes significant gains to the economy in the way of externalities resulting from research and development. In fact, the proportion of the military budget going into science is higher in the US than anywhere else.
Finally, calling me "prejudiced" does not equal rebutting my arguments. Sky-high unemployment (in some regions such as east Germany reaching 20%) and abysmal growth rates are very, VERY serious symptoms that you are going down the wrong path. Unless you can argue that somehow they don't matter, you, like your fatherland, are living in denial.
Let' see... does it tell us that a socialist government is the only one in Europe bringing with it a good economy? You can't have it both ways , Damon :rofl:Ron_Damon said:That, and the fact that the UK is the ONLY major country in Europe with a good economy (low unemployment, high growth) has GOT to tell you something...
I've heard that a couple times but I havn't seen a source for it. Could you site one? It'd be interesting to know how it came about as well, like did the US prod. go down or did Europe improve? And maybe see possible reasons for it.Mercator said:Anyway, you would better base your views on history than on today's biased newspapers. A simple fact: a few deacdes ago the US economy was more than double the size of the present EU countries together. Now we are equal. All that time you have been boasting about how well you did. The figures prove differently.
http://www.cer.org.uk/pdf/leonard_prospect_feb05.pdfSmurf said:I've heard that a couple times but I havn't seen a source for it. Could you site one? It'd be interesting to know how it came about as well, like did the US prod. go down or did Europe improve? And maybe see possible reasons for it.
Ron_Damon said:That, and the fact that the UK is the ONLY major country in Europe with a good economy (low unemployment, high growth) has GOT to tell you something...
Mercator said:Take all this together and you have the picture of a European population , quite wealthy, working hard when necessary and enjoying life much more than their longer working (not harder, not smarter!) US counterparts. We created enough wealth to even provide reasonable living standards for the unemployed. And things are still improving. But for some uncomprehensible reason Americans think it is a crime to live like that.
http://nidataplus.com/lfeus1.htm is the US unemployment rate. In April it was 5.2%, seasonally adjusted. Labor force 148.3 million, unemployed 7.3 million.Smurf said:I don't get your math russ, and can you post your sources for those numbers?
Its pretty straightforward: a significant fraction of the countries that make up the EU had just emerged from behind the iron curtain (anyone remember a country called "East Germany"?) and didn't really have functioning economies. So those countries have made vast gains in the past 20 years while the US has "merely" been chugging along at a healthy 3-5% annual growth (don't know what the actual average is).Smurf said:I've heard that a couple times but I havn't seen a source for it. Could you site one? It'd be interesting to know how it came about as well, like did the US prod. go down or did Europe improve? And maybe see possible reasons for it.