Having spent a lot of time with issues to do with mental health one thing seems to stand out that I felt needed to be discussed. So often these days when you want to discuss philosophy or other fields associated the discussion invariably ends up in a state of discussing the subjective nature of reality. The discussion invariabley ends with all parties agreeing that we essentially know nothing and that nothing is real any way. To me this is circular logic and self defeating use of philosophy. What do we know , how do we know and is what we know real any way? type of statements. So we leave none the wiser because it probably aint real any way so why bother. A Schizophrenic says that he knows the CIA is plotting to kill him. Is this real or isn't it? It is real, his experiences are real however his understanding of his experience is flawed. His reaction to his misunderstanding has a very real effect of other people etc.. so to say it isn't real is only to invalidate his existence. Subjectivity is just as real as objectivity. It is a reality that is unique to every individual and this is also a real statement. To say subjectivity is unreal is to say life is unreal....and so what do we end up with is a cronic state of doubting what is and what isn't real. Personally I just consider everything as being real, a childs imaginary friend is just as real as my fantasy of being an astonaught. which is just as real as the dinner I am had. Circular logic is an intellectual trap that we seem to like. It prevents productive thought and action. it is self defeating and a form of mental masturbation. An apple is an apple but is it an apple? Is an example of circular logic. Of course it is an apple and of course there is subjective differences but let us please accept that it is an apple and not be too concerned with variations in perception thus invalidating the fact that it is an apple. I know that subjectively I haven't explained my self too well with this thread but objectively the issue of circular logic is clear. Maybe some one else can subjectively add to this need to be objective about subjectivity and ahhhhhh this love of circular logic that we seem to all subjectively share.