Comment on new guidelines

[setAI]

Integral- some time ago I did just as you suggested and I was able to get some answers [although the thread was fairly dead- not a lot of interest]- here is the thread:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=27911

the problem is there doesn't seem to be a place to post something like this now- [or can I?] I know most alternative theory posts are usually thinly veiled attempts to spam/challenge/persuade- but I honestly am looking for errors becasue I believe they are wrong- but need good knowledge to argue with- I have several friends who are physicists that embrace what I think are crank theories [a lot of Aether/Plasma- heads- they almost hooked me as well]- the problem is that they have graduate level physics/math education so I NEED HELP TO ARGUE AGAINST THEM-

 

[chroot]

the problem is that they have graduate level physics/math education so I NEED HELP TO ARGUE AGAINST THEM-

Then you either need to get a graduate level education in physics or math, or you need to recruit help somewhere else.

- Warren

 

[setAI]

Then you either need to get a graduate level education in physics or math, or you need to recruit help somewhere else.

- Warren

do you really mean that? really?

there is no where else that I am aware of- and the idea of leaving my university admin position with no way to pay my bills/rent so I can go study graduate physics and spend thousands of dollars just to have a little more information to argue with a friend- when I could simply ask an expert for some advice?

does that mean if you had a heart problem- you would go to medical school and try to operate on yourself instead of going to a physician? come on now

 

[chroot]

You're welcome to ask questions here, setAI, as I have said all along. If you want to argue with the answers from the experts, though, you're probably not so welcome.

- Warren

 

[marlon]

does that mean if you had a heart problem- you would go to medical school and try to operate on yourself instead of going to a physician? come on now

Now this is an interesting remark. SetAI, what is it that you want to achieve with this statement ? What is your point here ? Sorry for bumping in here but i don't really see your problem...

marlon

 

[what_are_electrons]

Now this is an interesting remark. SetAI, what is it that you want to achieve with this statement ? What is your point here ? Sorry for bumping in here but i don't really see your problem...

marlon

The problem SetAI has is one that I have too. I have no time or money to go back to school and yet I want to learn advanced physics concepts. When I read something I don't understand, I need to ask a question and sometimes I end up making it appear like I am speculating some new theory which is nowadays immediately sent to TD or locked. It's not that I am really speculating, but rather it is a difference in communication, the ability to understand what is written and ability to define the question. From my current point of view, the PF has put on blinders and has mental cataracts. Those who could help, decide arbitrarily that the people asking for help are quacks. All in all, it is a sad state of affairs on the PF.

 

[chroot]

Those who could help, decide arbitrarily that the people asking for help are quacks.

This site is fundamentally based on those who are more educated helping those who are less educated. Virtually every thread on pf begins with a question. I have no idea how you can say something as ridiculous as this!

- Warren

 

[Integral]

SetAI,

I checked one of your links, do you really expect me to plow through a 300+ page pdf just so I can tell you what is wrong with it? Sorry dude, it aint going to happen. I would rather spend my time attempting understand a VALID theory, why should I waste any time and effort on one that can be seen as flawed in the first paragraphs? Would you be satisfied if someone knowledgeable, were to simply say, "That is garbage, avoid it"?


If you want to learn Physics your time be better spent finding a text of the appropriate level. Then, instead of surfing questionable web pages, read and work your way through the text. Now you could bring meaningful and useful questions to the forum. This would be a pleasure for all involved.

 

[Moonbear]

no one seems to ever address the elephant in the room- the good thing about Physicsforums theory developmennt was the fact that theories could be posted and DEBUNKED by professionals

You could try the skepticism and debunking forum. That way, everyone entering knows the topic is already highly suspect of crackpot-ness, and if they feel like giving it a stab when they have some free time to amuse themselves, they can. Most people posting theories in TD weren't doing so with the acknowledgment they were in need of debunking, they posted them there thinking they had revolutionized science with the handful of equations they had just learned and applied incorrectly with complete disregard for all of the experimental evidence to the contrary.

 

[Chronos]

Handful of equations? More like a head full of vague abstractions and circular logic. When was the last time you saw a pottery magician post any math?

 

[Moonbear]

Handful of equations? More like a head full of vague abstractions and circular logic. When was the last time you saw a pottery magician post any math?

Oh, some throw in some math. It's always wrong, but they like to use math and Greek symbols, probably because they can make pretty patterns out of them. The most dangerous thing about cracked pottery is that it has so many errors and false premises that you can't just point to one fatal flaw to say it is wrong, so it's incredibly time-consuming to go through all the reasons why it's nonsense.

 

[enigma]

pottery magician

Pottery magician!

That is pure brilliance, Chronos!

 

[arildno]

I was never attracted towards archeaology; the study of pottery shards seems so tedious and unrewarding..

 

[Nereid]

Integral- some time ago I did just as you suggested and I was able to get some answers [although the thread was fairly dead- not a lot of interest]- here is the thread:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=27911

the problem is there doesn't seem to be a place to post something like this now- [or can I?] I know most alternative theory posts are usually thinly veiled attempts to spam/challenge/persuade- but I honestly am looking for errors becasue I believe they are wrong- but need good knowledge to argue with- I have several friends who are physicists that embrace what I think are crank theories [a lot of Aether/Plasma- heads- they almost hooked me as well]- the problem is that they have graduate level physics/math education so I NEED HELP TO ARGUE AGAINST THEM-

Two suggestions:

1) You could set up your own discussion forum, recruit some willing and knowledgeable advisers, etc. The forum would probably need to have a different format that that which we have here at PF - perhaps only one new thread per week? Perhaps a strict limit on the number of posts in favour of an off-the-wall idea? If you were to be the moderator, I'd guess you'd quickly find you were bombarded with hundreds of emails, PMs, new postings ... per day ... that you would find very tiresome; so little gold, so much dross.

2) Ask supporters of these off-the-wall ideas to give a succinct list of the core problems with their ideas, such as apparent internal inconsistencies, inconsistencies with well-established theories with overlapping domains of applicability, and mismatches with good observational or experimental results. IMHO, a mark of 'good science' is the ability of those very familiar with their field to write such a list ... it would also seem that pottery magicians (such a marvellous expression!) are reluctant to acknowledge that even hairline cracks in their works. Of course, this is far from a perfect method - good theories have a share of arrogant, blustery advocates.

 

[Nereid]

The problem SetAI has is one that I have too. I have no time or money to go back to school and yet I want to learn advanced physics concepts. When I read something I don't understand, I need to ask a question and sometimes I end up making it appear like I am speculating some new theory which is nowadays immediately sent to TD or locked. It's not that I am really speculating, but rather it is a difference in communication, the ability to understand what is written and ability to define the question.

This can be quite difficult ... if you don't know at least something about the answer, how can you ask a question?

A suggestion or three. Try to ask general, open questions first, using 'what', 'how', 'in what way', rather than 'why'. Be patient; ask your questions one at a time, with each new one building upon the answers from previous questions. If you get a response which seems to indicate your post has been misunderstood as promoting an overly speculative idea, reply that you are trying to understand how certain phemonena are addressed within the best theories we have today, and to what extent. If you're looking for results of particular kinds of experiments, say so (these are usually pretty easy to find).

 

[russ_watters]

Another suggestion: if you get an answer you don't like, don't reject it just because you don't like it. If you truly want to learn, act like it.

 

[Moonbear]

This can be quite difficult ... if you don't know at least something about the answer, how can you ask a question?

A suggestion or three. Try to ask general, open questions first, using 'what', 'how', 'in what way', rather than 'why'. Be patient; ask your questions one at a time, with each new one building upon the answers from previous questions. If you get a response which seems to indicate your post has been misunderstood as promoting an overly speculative idea, reply that you are trying to understand how certain phemonena are addressed within the best theories we have today, and to what extent. If you're looking for results of particular kinds of experiments, say so (these are usually pretty easy to find).

To build on Nereid's suggestions, which are very good ones, you have to build up your knowledge gradually, just as if you were going back to school. If you're going to study physics as a hobby rather than as a full-time job, then it's going to take longer to get good at it. If you're serious about wanting to learn more, you are going to have to invest at least some money into your hobby. Before jumping to advanced physics, buy some intermediate level textbooks. Find ones that come with problem sets or a study guide to help you along, and usually you can buy the solutions manual as well. Definitely go with ones where you can get your hands on the solutions (some academic publishers require that you write to them directly on letterhead to request the solutions guides for their texts so that you can show them you are not a student just trying to cheat your way through homework assignments). If you posted a list of the formal physics courses you've taken so far, whether the last course you took was high school physics or college level intro to physics, or if you took a few more advanced classes, and asked for suggestions of what a good text would be to study the next level, you'll probably get some good responses. When working through problem sets, your questions will be easy to ask. You could even ask them in the homework help section.

 

[Moonbear]

do you really mean that? really?

there is no where else that I am aware of- and the idea of leaving my university admin position with no way to pay my bills/rent so I can go study graduate physics and spend thousands of dollars just to have a little more information to argue with a friend- when I could simply ask an expert for some advice?

Does anyone else see the disturbing disconnect here? Someone claiming to be a university administrator who has no appreciation of higher education, or even of the logistics of getting an advanced degree?

And if your only motivation for asking questions here is to have a "little more information to argue with a friend," why should we be bothered with it.

does that mean if you had a heart problem- you would go to medical school and try to operate on yourself instead of going to a physician? come on now

No, what it means is if you want to have a discussion with a medical expert about current research in the field in more than a superficial sense, you need to go to graduate school or medical school too. Would you bring a book you suspect is quackery to your physician and ask him/her to go though it point by point to explain every bit of misinformation in it so you can go to your cocktail party and argue with your friend about it?

Oh, and here's another tip, which if you work in university adminstration, I'd hope you would already know. People writing crackpot theories don't have the advanced degrees they claim to have. Reputable scientists with reputable theories will have a track record of publications in scientific journals (you know, those things the university administrators count when trying to determine who gets tenure). Reputable books have editors. Now, some experts will write the occassional book intended for the lay reader. This is to excite the general public about the topic, and inform them a little bit, but things do necessarily get oversimplified for such books. They aren't intended to be critically evaluated, but instead are simplified summaries of the current field of knowledge intended for the non-expert reader.

 

[quantumdude]

Can't afford an education?

*cough cough*

There are enough free e-books on the internet to supply an education in physics from freshman year, all the way up to an MS degree. You'll have the knowledge, just not the degree.

And of course, anyone is welcome to ask for help here.

On that note,

"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance."
--Author Unknown

Word.