Computing first derivative based on second derivative

In summary, the conversation discusses the validity of using an explicit Runge-Kutta method to numerically solve a partial differential equation. The question is whether it is acceptable to make a substitution and solve for a first-order derivative instead, with both spatial and time derivatives approximated by backward difference schemes. The expert concludes that this method does not make sense as Runge-Kutta methods are only suitable for ordinary differential equations, not partial differential equations. Additionally, a method of lines would need to be applied first to discretize the spatial domain.
  • #1
TheCanadian
367
13
I am trying to numerically solve a PDE, and just had a question as to the validity of a certain approach. For example, given the PDE:

$$ \frac {\partial ^2 E}{\partial t^2} = - k\frac {\partial E}{\partial t} + c^2 \frac {\partial ^2 E}{\partial z^2} - c\frac {\partial E}{\partial z}$$

If I was to apply an explicit Runge-Kutta method, I could make a substitution:

$$ u = \frac {\partial E}{\partial t} $$

and solve the following instead:

$$ \frac {\partial u}{\partial t} = - ku + c^2 \frac {\partial ^2 E}{\partial z^2} - c\frac {\partial E}{\partial z}
\\ \\
u = \frac {\partial E}{\partial t} $$

where the spatial derivatives are computed by a finite difference approximation (e.g. backward difference). I was just wondering: is solving the following a valid approach?

$$ \frac {\partial E}{\partial t} = \frac{1}{k}(-\frac {\partial ^2 E}{\partial t^2} + c^2 \frac {\partial ^2 E}{\partial z^2} - c\frac {\partial E}{\partial z})$$

Where now both the spatial derivatives and second time derivative are approximated by backward difference schemes, while I apply the Runge-Kutta method to the first time derivative of ##E##. I have not seen this done anywhere, but was just curious as to why (or why not) this is an unacceptable method? Mathematically, it seems odd that my first order derivative depends on higher order derivatives of itself, although I don't immediately see any reason why this is wrong numerically.
 
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  • #2
I don't believe this makes sense. To the best of my knowledge, Runge-Kutta methods are specific to ordinary DEs, not partial DEs.
 
  • #3
Mark44 said:
I don't believe this makes sense. To the best of my knowledge, Runge-Kutta methods are specific to ordinary DEs, not partial DEs.

Yes, that is correct. I would have to apply a method of lines first to discretize the ##z##-space. Once I have done this, I am applying the spatial derivatives to step ##E## forward in the ##z##-direction at a particular ##t##.
 

1. What is the purpose of computing the first derivative based on the second derivative?

The first derivative of a function describes its rate of change at a specific point, while the second derivative describes the rate of change of the first derivative. Computing the first derivative based on the second derivative allows us to analyze the curvature of a function at a given point, providing valuable information about the behavior of the function.

2. How do I compute the first derivative based on the second derivative?

To compute the first derivative based on the second derivative, you can use the power rule for derivatives. This rule states that the derivative of a function raised to a power is equal to the power multiplied by the function to the power minus one, multiplied by the derivative of the function. In simpler terms, you can take the second derivative, multiply it by the original function raised to the power of the second derivative minus one, and then multiply by the derivative of the function.

3. What is the relationship between the first and second derivatives?

The first and second derivatives are closely related, as the second derivative is the derivative of the first derivative. This means that the second derivative describes the rate of change of the rate of change of the original function. In other words, the second derivative provides information about the curvature of the function, while the first derivative provides information about the slope of the function.

4. Can I use the first derivative to determine the concavity of a function?

Yes, you can use the first derivative to determine the concavity of a function. When the first derivative is positive, the function is increasing and the concavity is upward, while a negative first derivative indicates a decreasing function and downward concavity. Additionally, if the first derivative changes from positive to negative, or vice versa, at a specific point, that point is a point of inflection where the concavity changes.

5. What are some real-world applications of computing the first derivative based on the second derivative?

Computing the first derivative based on the second derivative has many practical applications in fields such as physics, engineering, and economics. For example, it can be used to analyze the velocity and acceleration of an object in motion, determine the stability of a system in engineering, or predict the growth or decline of a market in economics. It is also essential in optimization problems, where finding the maximum or minimum value of a function is necessary.

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