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I have a curve, impedance magnitude vs frequency. i would like to convert this curve to electrical conductivity vs time. how can i do that?

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- Thread starter Alba19
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In summary, the conversation revolved around converting a curve of impedance magnitude vs frequency to electrical conductivity vs time. The experts stated that this conversion is not possible due to the reactive contribution in AC measurements and the frequency dependence of impedance being from reactance, not conductivity. They also mentioned that the units for electrical conductivity are mhos or Siemens, and suggested converting the curve to admittance vs period instead. The conversation ended with the person wanting to model a system with a black box using conductivity as the transfer function, but not providing enough information for the experts to fully understand their question.

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I have a curve, impedance magnitude vs frequency. i would like to convert this curve to electrical conductivity vs time. how can i do that?

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- #2

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Impedance vs frequency is an AC measurement; meaning the capacitance and inductance (i.e. the reactive contribution) also plays a role. Hence, if you only have the magnitude there is no way to figure out what the conductivity is.

Also, "conductivity vs time" does not make sense; the frequency dependence of the impedance comes from the reactance, not the conductivity.

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Perhaps you meanAlba19 said:

I have a curve, impedance magnitude vs frequency. i would like to convert this curve to electrical conductivity vs time. how can i do that?

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What units do you have in mind for "electrical conductivity"?

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S/m(unit)NascentOxygen said:What units do you have in mind for "electrical conductivity"?

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Is that what you mean?

We are having trouble understanding your question.

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Hi.

**quotient **of the complex numbers of a sinusoidal voltage over a sinusoidal current. The units of impedence are Ohms.

$$ v(t) = A \cos( \omega t) \,\, V \rightarrow A \angle{0} \,\, V \\

i(t) = B \cos(\omega t + \phi) \,\, A \rightarrow B \angle{\phi} \,\, A \\

Z_{L} = \dfrac{ A \angle{0} }{ B \angle{\phi} } \,\, \Omega = \dfrac{A}{B} \angle{ - \phi } \,\, \Omega

$$

The inverse of this complex number, is**admittance. **Admittance has the same units as conductance: Siemens $$\,\, S $$

You can convert an impedence to an admittance by taking its reciprocal:

$$ \dfrac{1}{Z_{L} } = \dfrac{1 \angle{0} }{ \dfrac{A}{B} \angle{ - \phi } \,\, \Omega} = \dfrac{B}{A}\angle{ \phi } \,\, S = Y_{L} $$

The admittance is simply the**quotient **of the complex current over voltage.

The units of**admittance are Siemens, same as conductance. You can convert the impedence response by taking the reciprocal of the impedence function. **But you cannot convert an impedence to a conductance, just that its **reciprocal **has the same units as conductance. You can them compare the **magnitudes**.

For example, the impedence of a capacitor can be proven to be:

$$ -j \cdot \dfrac{1}{ \omega C} \,\, \Omega $$ Where $$ \dfrac{1}{ \omega C } \,\, \Omega $$ is the**capacitive reactance. **

The reciprocal of**capacitive and inductive reactance** is called capacitive susceptance $$\dfrac{1}{\dfrac{1}{ \omega C } \Omega } = \omega C \,\, S $$ and inductive susceptance respectively, they have units of Siemens.

As an example, take a series RLC circuit:

$$ R + j( \omega L - \dfrac{1}{\omega C} ) \,\, (\Omega) = Z(\omega) $$

The**magnitude response is: **

$$ | Z(\omega)| \,\, \Omega = \sqrt{ {R^2 + ( \omega L - \dfrac{1}{\omega C} )^2} } \,\, (\Omega) $$

Taking the inverse of this:

$$ \boxed{|Y(\omega)| S = \dfrac{1}{| Z(\omega)| (\Omega) } = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{ {R^2 + ( \omega L - \dfrac{1}{\omega C} )^2} } \,\, (\Omega) }} $$

You can convert an impedence function of angular velocity to an admittance function of angular velocity, as stated in my earlier post. To convert it to the time domain is not possible.

The complex numbers that represent current and voltage can indeed be converted to the time domain by multiplying them with the exponential that was factored out previously:

Impedence is the complex number that captures the magnitude and phase of theAlba19 said:

I have a curve, impedance magnitude vs frequency. i would like to convert this curve to electrical conductivity vs time. how can i do that?

$$ v(t) = A \cos( \omega t) \,\, V \rightarrow A \angle{0} \,\, V \\

i(t) = B \cos(\omega t + \phi) \,\, A \rightarrow B \angle{\phi} \,\, A \\

Z_{L} = \dfrac{ A \angle{0} }{ B \angle{\phi} } \,\, \Omega = \dfrac{A}{B} \angle{ - \phi } \,\, \Omega

$$

The inverse of this complex number, is

You can convert an impedence to an admittance by taking its reciprocal:

$$ \dfrac{1}{Z_{L} } = \dfrac{1 \angle{0} }{ \dfrac{A}{B} \angle{ - \phi } \,\, \Omega} = \dfrac{B}{A}\angle{ \phi } \,\, S = Y_{L} $$

The admittance is simply the

The units of

For example, the impedence of a capacitor can be proven to be:

$$ -j \cdot \dfrac{1}{ \omega C} \,\, \Omega $$ Where $$ \dfrac{1}{ \omega C } \,\, \Omega $$ is the

The reciprocal of

As an example, take a series RLC circuit:

$$ R + j( \omega L - \dfrac{1}{\omega C} ) \,\, (\Omega) = Z(\omega) $$

The

$$ | Z(\omega)| \,\, \Omega = \sqrt{ {R^2 + ( \omega L - \dfrac{1}{\omega C} )^2} } \,\, (\Omega) $$

Taking the inverse of this:

$$ \boxed{|Y(\omega)| S = \dfrac{1}{| Z(\omega)| (\Omega) } = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{ {R^2 + ( \omega L - \dfrac{1}{\omega C} )^2} } \,\, (\Omega) }} $$

You can convert an impedence function of angular velocity to an admittance function of angular velocity, as stated in my earlier post. To convert it to the time domain is not possible.

The complex numbers that represent current and voltage can indeed be converted to the time domain by multiplying them with the exponential that was factored out previously:

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Maybe it would help if we knew where the curve data came from?Alba19 said:I have a curve, impedance magnitude vs frequency.

Why do you need to invert the graph of the data?

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Okay. But there is no length dimension in your impedance data.Alba19 said:S/m(unit)

I think the best you can do is convert

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The units you mentioned, Siemens per meter, is this something related to transmission lines?

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I want to model a system with a black box. my transfer function is conductivity and i just have Magnitude of impedance vs frequency in different temperature and magnitude of current vs frequency.Baluncore said:Maybe it would help if we knew where the curve data came from?

Why do you need to invert the graph of the data?

I would like how i get to it

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anorlunda said:

Is that what you mean?

We are having trouble understanding your question.

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Is that...Alba19 said:I want to model a system with a black box. my transfer function is conductivity and i just have Magnitude of impedance vs frequency in different temperature and magnitude of current vs frequency.

I would like how i get to it

Output impedance Vs input frequency?

Output current Vs input frequency?

If that's all you have then you can't work out a transfer function ...

Output conductance Vs input conductance.

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What is the input to the black box? What is the output?

Please provide a block diagram showing inputs, outputs and which signal is swept in frequency.

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What is the system?

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The output is conductivity vs time. i have some graphs of the system. 2graphs are attached above. the graphs include: Current vs time, magnitude of current vs frequency, current vs voltage, magnitude of impedance vs frequency and magnitude of current vs temperature.that's all. the graph of current vs time is dependent on temperature.CWatters said:What is the system?

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all graphs are related to a system. temperature, frequency, time are inputs of graphsBaluncore said:

What is the input to the black box? What is the output?

Please provide a block diagram showing inputs, outputs and which signal is swept in frequency.

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Alba19 said:The output is conductivity vs time. i have some graphs of the system. 2graphs are attached above. the graphs include: Current vs time, magnitude of current vs frequency, current vs voltage, magnitude of impedance vs frequency and magnitude of current vs temperature.that's all. the graph of current vs time is dependent on temperature.

That makes no sense. There is no way to calculate the conductivity using that information. Even if you had a complete description (i.e. including phase information) of your "black box" as a 2-port system you would at the very least need a circuit model (as well as the geometric dimensions of you sample) to calculate a parameter such as conductance.

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You mean i should have equivalent circuit of system? how come?f95toli said:That makes no sense. There is no way to calculate the conductivity using that information. Even if you had a complete description (i.e. including phase information) of your "black box" as a 2-port system you would at the very least need a circuit model (as well as the geometric dimensions of you sample) to calculate a parameter such as conductance.

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What is the input variable?Alba19 said:I want to model a system with a black box.

What is the output variable?

That does not make sense. You have a frequency swept input and you have an output. The transfer function is the output divided by the input. That might have the same dimensions as conductivity.Alba19 said:. my transfer function is conductivity

Since you have only the magnitude of the complex variables, you have lost the phase or time information. The problem may therefore be insoluble.

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Conductivity or “specific conductance” is the reciprocal of electrical resistivity.

Conductivity is a property of a material, independent of geometry or scale.

The SI unit of conductivity is siemens/metre, (S/m), and has dimensions of kg

The conductance, G, of a particular element is the ratio of current through the element divided by the voltage across the element. G = I / V. The unit is siemens or mho and has dimensions of kg

The resistance, R, of a particular element is the ratio of voltage across the element divided by the current through the element. R = V / I. The unit is ohm and has dimensions of kg⋅m

G = R

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When I ask "what is the system" I meant is it a production line making something like battery electrodes? Thin film resistors? Chocolate mouse?Alba19 said:The output is conductivity vs time. i have some graphs of the system. 2graphs are attached above. the graphs include: Current vs time, magnitude of current vs frequency, current vs voltage, magnitude of impedance vs frequency and magnitude of current vs temperature.that's all. the graph of current vs time is dependent on temperature.

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I mean electrical coductivity. material properties (S/m), inverse of RBaluncore said:

Conductivity or “specific conductance” is the reciprocal of electrical resistivity.

Conductivity is a property of a material, independent of geometry or scale.

The SI unit of conductivity is siemens/metre, (S/m), and has dimensions of kg^{−1}⋅m^{−3}⋅s^{3}⋅A^{2}

The conductance, G, of a particular element is the ratio of current through the element divided by the voltage across the element. G = I / V. The unit is siemens or mho and has dimensions of kg^{−1}⋅m^{−2}⋅s^{3}⋅A^{2}

The resistance, R, of a particular element is the ratio of voltage across the element divided by the current through the element. R = V / I. The unit is ohm and has dimensions of kg⋅m^{2}⋅s^{−3}⋅A^{−2 }

G = R^{−1}.

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?Baluncore said:What is the input variable?

What is the output variable?

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If you mean conductance (not conductivity) then it might be possible in two steps...Alba19 said:The output is conductivity vs time. i have some graphs of the system. 2graphs are attached above. the graphs include: Current vs time, magnitude of current vs frequency, current vs voltage, magnitude of impedance vs frequency and magnitude of current vs temperature.that's all. the graph of current vs time is dependent on temperature.

1) If you have "current vs voltage" you can plot conductance vs current.

2) Then if you have "current vs time" you can plot conductance vs time.

Then if you have the mechanical dimensions you can possibly convert conductance to conductivity.

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