Could the BP Oil Spill Have Long-Term Effects on Human Health?

[rhody]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/29/us/29spill.html"

Somehow, the thought of the Coast Guard trying this scares the crap out of me...

I admit I tend to worry too much but this has the potential to go ohhh so wrong with many unintended consequences...

Rhody...

 

[magpies]

I like the burn it idea actually at least it will stop a lot of it from reaching shore. Can't possibly go that bad imo. Iv always wondered why they don't normaly do this. Probably just cause nobodys done it.

 

[Borg]

A few minutes ago one of my coworkers asked, "are you going to the Coast Guard Fish Fry?". We didn't realize what he was talking about right away.

 

[rhody]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/04/26/crews-race-contain-oil-spill-rig-blast/"

From the looks of the map in the story it doesn't look like the attempt at burning the oil is possible. I have a friend who used to work in the oil industry in the exploration and drilling areas long ago, I will check with him and get his take on this. If most of the tar like oil is on the bottom, the next question is, how long will mother nature in her infinite wisdom take to cover it up and stratify it in a new layer ?

Ed Overton, a professor emeritus of environmental sciences at Louisiana State University who's studying the oil spill, questioned whether burning would work.

"It can be effective in calm water, not much wind, in a protected area," he said. "When you're out in the middle of the ocean, with wave actions, and currents, pushing you around, it's not easy."

He has another concern: The oil samples from the spill he's looked at shows it to be a sticky substance similar to roofing tar.

"I'm not super optimistic. This is tarry crude that lies down in the water," he said. "But it's something that has got to be tried."

Rhody...

 

[mgb_phys]

I like the burn it idea actually at least it will stop a lot of it from reaching shore. Can't possibly go that bad imo. Iv always wondered why they don't normaly do this. Probably just cause nobodys done it.

It used to be the standard procedure (Torrey Canyon) but it only works for the oil on the surface (naturally) and creates a lot of other more toxic pollutants.
Generally if the water is calm enough to be able to burn it, then it's calm enough to skim it which is the safest alternative.

The main objection is probably that it creates huge clouds of dramatic and newsworthy smoke.

 

[rhody]

Watching this whole saga unfold is rather depressing... and the attempts to recover, control it are almost comical.

Rhody...

 

[Ivan Seeking]

A disaster in slow motion.

 

[rhody]

All info presented below is eyewitness testimony, and as such is subject to scrutiny and investigation, and my possibly imperfect recollection of it. Feel free to correct, comment, and add clarification as needed.

Just watched Frank Williams (Chief Elect Eng) testimony on Sixty Minutes on the doomed oil drilling platform, shades of disaster similar to the Space Shuttle, damaged O Ring in the preventer kept the pressure from being measured correctly, this happened a couple of weeks before the blowout, (sounds like the damage was caused by faulty procedures or human error). The second factor was the liquid then pump down with the drill was not done as is normal procedure (to save time), they were to cap and plug the well so another rig could be brought into extract the oil, note: they were behind schedule and trying to make up time to keep loses from escalating

Note: According to Frank Williams, there was disagreement as to who would direct the capping operation. The end result was in haste that the gas rose in the pipeline, got into the diesel engines on the rig, and explosion ensured. The rest is history.

Again, similar to what happened to Columbia, drastic underestimation (Note: three different contractors were involved in managing the rig) of risk resulting in a catastrophic failure.

Enough said... sigh, IMHO, we never seem to learn, keep repeating the same type of mistakes, this time it would seem in the interest of loss revenue.

Rhody...

 

[russ_watters]

I saw the piece. A good analysis of the situation. I find that most engineering disasters have the same hallmarks of complacancy-caused relaxation of safety standards combined with greed.

 

[GreatEscapist]

It's so stupid how long it's taking us to figure this out. We've figured out brain surgery, touch screens, and self-butt-cleaning toilets, yet we can't plug a hole?

*claps*

 

[rhody]

I saw the piece. A good analysis of the situation. I find that most engineering disasters have the same hallmarks of complacancy-caused relaxation of safety standards combined with greed.

russ,

I like that quote, complete, to the point.

complacancy-caused relaxation of safety standards combined with greed

Rhody...

 

[IcedEcliptic]

Given that oil is now dispersed through 4000 FEET in the water column, this is at best a cosmetic gesture.

http://www.nola.com/news/gulf-oil-spill/index.ssf/2010/05/huge_underwater_oil_plumes_fou.html

Hope you like imported shrimp and oysters...

 

[mgb_phys]

Hope you like imported shrimp and oysters...

"And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you."
Obviously an act of God!

 

[IcedEcliptic]

"And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you."
Obviously an act of God!

Yes, if only the rest of the food chain wasn't taking it in the chops as well. Between that and the role of pigs in the incubation and mutation of influenza, I have people make that argument to me in earnest. My riposte is: "mmmm bacon."

"Leviticus 25:23-24 - The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants. Throughout the country that you hold as a possession, you must provide for the redemption of the land"

"Ezekial 34:2-4 - Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who only take care of themselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock? You eat the curds, clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you do not take care of the flock. You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. "

"Isaiah 24:4-6 - The Earth dries up and withers, the world languishes and withers, the exalted of the Earth languish. The Earth is defiled by its people; they have disobeyed the laws, violated the statutes and broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore a curse consumes the earth; its people must bear their guilt. Therefore Earth's inhabitants are burned up, and very few are left."

and this:

"Psalms 104: 25-30 - There is the sea, vast and spacious, teeming with creatures beyond number— living things both large and small. There the ships go to and fro, and the leviathan, which you formed to frolic there. These all look to you to give them their food at the proper time. When you give it to them, they gather it up; when you open your hand, they are satisfied with good things. When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust. When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth."

"Colossians 1:16-17 - For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things."

 

[mgb_phys]

All these rules and yet the only one that apparently matters is the "don't be gay" one.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

All these rules and yet the only one that apparently matters is the "don't be gay" one.

People can be cruel, and stupid, and they do not seem to grasp the concept of "parable".

Here is some humour along that line ;)

Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call into her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a east coast resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possesses slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify?
Why can't I own Canadians?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree.
Can you settle this?
Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and
unchanging.

Your devoted fan,
Jim

 

[mgb_phys]

I love that - I always wanted to turn up an anti-gay rally and protest their (ie. the protesters) wearing of poly-cotton.

Isn't there also one about forgiving all debts and mortgages every seven years?

 

[mheslep]

People can be cruel, and stupid, and they do not seem to grasp the concept of "parable".

Here is some humour along that line ;)

"Humor Site I Have Forgotten". Obviously that's an extensive quote. How can you have forgotten the source?

 

[IcedEcliptic]

"Humor Site I Have Forgotten". Obviously that's an extensive quote. How can you have forgotten the source?

It is an old bit, and as it says, an open letter. I copy and pasted it to a text file of funny quotes, so it was out of context. Sorry!

Mgb_phys: I know, people are so very selective in their fundamentalism.

 

[rhody]

Now, here is an unlikely scenario: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2226640420100523?type=marketsNews"

excerpt:

In Tehran, Mehran Alinejad, head of special drilling operations at the National Iranian Drilling Co., said Iran had successfully dealt with past huge oil leaks, particularly when rigs were bombed during a war with Iraq in the 1980s.

"Iranian technical teams have had major achievements in oil well capping compared with which the Gulf of Mexico oil rig is no feat," he told IRNA news agenc

If Iran were to assist with oil knowledge and technology to stop the spill, it would be one small positive step in establishing some kind of normal relations with them.

Rhody...

 

[lisab]

Now, here is an unlikely scenario: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2226640420100523?type=marketsNews"

excerpt:


If Iran were to assist with oil knowledge and technology to stop the spill, it would be one small positive step in establishing some kind of normal relations with them.

Rhody...

I agree, but you can imagine how the right wing would go nuts on President Obama for allowing that.

 

[rhody]

I agree, but you can imagine how the right wing would go nuts on President Obama for allowing that.

lisa,

I agree 100%, I consider myself moderate conservative (cautious) by nature, however, this is one crisis where both sides and the extreme's in either one need to come together to brain storm a strategy that will work. In another thread I read of some of the top theoretical physicists are working on it too. We need all the help we can get from every credible source and country on the planet.

Rhody...

 

[lisab]

lisa,

I agree 100%, I consider myself moderate conservative (cautious) by nature, however, this is one crisis where both sides and the extreme's in either one need to come together to brain storm a strategy that will work. In another thread I read of some of the top theoretical physicists are working on it too. We need all the help we can get from every credible source and country on the planet.

Rhody...

Yes, I'd very much like to see that too. Sometimes to advance a relationship (be it interpersonal or international) it's good to allow yourself to be helped, even if you don't really need it.

In this case, I'm afraid we actually do need it. If the Iranians know techniques to stem the flow I'd love to have them seated the table.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

That would be an interesting diplomatic gesture, but considering the nuclear issue I'm not sure how it would work.

 

[Moonbear]

The article really doesn't say it's a cure to the problem, just one approach to cleaning up some of the spill. You figure with something this big, it's going to take more than one approach all attacking it from different directions...burn off surface oil, something else for the stuff settling to the bottom, try to protect the coastline the best you can, work on stopping the leak, etc.

Though, the interesting note of the article to me was that IF the private sector can't handle it, the defense dept. might get involved. Why are they waiting? Seriously, if they have some way they can help, supplies, equipment, know-how, people, etc., send them into help now. They can bill BP for it later.

What boggles my mind is that nobody ever considered this what-if scenario before to have an emergency plan in place to fix it quickly. Nobody ever thought it was possible you could get a leak or break in a line right down near the well itself? How is this surprising? If it can happen on land, surely it could happen undersea.

 

[Moonbear]

I agree, but you can imagine how the right wing would go nuts on President Obama for allowing that.

This is where he needs to grow some cojones and do what needs to be done, damned with what people are going to blab about later. They're going to crucify him for doing nothing anyway, so if there's someone who can help, take the help. Worst case scenario, the Republicans still hate him when it's all over. Best case scenario, Iran really does help and the damage is limited more quickly than leaving it up to private industry to handle something they have no experience handling, and everyone cheers. We send aid all over the world when other countries need it, why can't we take some help when we need it? Heck, if I'm in favor of the defense dept. jumping in and sending BP the bill later, let Iran send the bill to BP too.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

This is where he needs to grow some cojones and do what needs to be done, damned with what people are going to blab about later. They're going to crucify him for doing nothing anyway, so if there's someone who can help, take the help. Worst case scenario, the Republicans still hate him when it's all over. Best case scenario, Iran really does help and the damage is limited more quickly than leaving it up to private industry to handle something they have no experience handling, and everyone cheers. We send aid all over the world when other countries need it, why can't we take some help when we need it? Heck, if I'm in favor of the defense dept. jumping in and sending BP the bill later, let Iran send the bill to BP too.

Those are words of true wisdom.

 

[magpies]

I think the best thing we could do is to just make preemptive nuclear strike on the rest of the world. If we do it when they least expect we can get them with their pants down. Let's just face facts with all the bullturd going on in the world it's going to come down to a world war and it will result in at least some nukes most likely. So if we cut the snakes head off before it gets a chance to bite we will probably be better off. So imo the best way to solve the oil spill problem is to do what nike would do... just nuke it. :)

 

[IcedEcliptic]

I think the best thing we could do is to just make preemptive nuclear strike on the rest of the world. If we do it when they least expect we can get them with their pants down. Let's just face facts with all the bullturd going on in the world it's going to come down to a world war and it will result in at least some nukes most likely. So if we cut the snakes head off before it gets a chance to bite we will probably be better off. So imo the best way to solve the oil spill problem is to do what nike would do... just nuke it. :)

Magpies, I think that might be jumping the gun a bit.

 

[magpies]

Possibly but then again what if it's not? The question you gota ask is how bad will the next world war be?

 

[IcedEcliptic]

Possibly but then again what if it's not? The question you gota ask is how bad will the next world war be?

I have no way of knowing, but I imagine that we agree that it would probably be fairly brutal and destructive should it occur. Remember that delay of such a conflict allows us all to live a bit longer, and enjoy life (if we can). No need to rush to an abrupt end, unless you're expressing a sublimated suicidal urge.

This is a disaster, and burning wetlands already trashed by Hurricane Katrina has been decried by those not concerned only with clean beaches. That being said, I'll take it over mushroom clouds.

 

[magpies]

Well I didn't say we should nuke our selfs just the evil countrys... Like cuba brazil and antartica.

With all joking aside I really do think burning the oil is the best bet. If you look at the larger oil spills in history the oil that ends up on beachs stays there for many many years. Of course burning it will kill most if not all the wild life in that area it will however be able to regrow instead of just having oil filled wet lands that doesn't have anything growing for more then decades.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

Well I didn't say we should nuke our selfs just the evil countrys... Like cuba brazil and antartica.

With all joking aside I really do think burning the oil is the best bet. If you look at the larger oil spills in history the oil that ends up on beachs stays there for many many years. Of course burning it will kill most if not all the wild life in that area it will however be able to regrow instead of just having oil filled wet lands that doesn't have anything growing for more then decades.

I really don't know enough about the effects of burning oil in this fashion to make form an opinion. I can only see what warring environmentalists, industrialists and politicians have to say on this. From what little I do know however, calm water allow for skimming, and are required for a burn. Why not skim? This spill is also very dispersed in plumes beneath the surface now, so I wonder if this would be meaningful in any way.

I don't know that a good option exists one this kind of tragedy occurs. So... your nuke idea, where do I sign up:)

 

[magpies]

You'll have to become a really good hacker and pull a number on the systems that control nuke deployment...

Well I think the main problem with this oil spill is that nobody is going to be willing to clean it up. So it's either come up with a way to get people to clean it or take the easy out with fire. Thing is the longer we wait the worse it is... What I am really hoping for is hurricane season to come and collect some of the oil and spray it across the country...

 

[mheslep]

Now, here is an unlikely scenario: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2226640420100523?type=marketsNews"

That link doesn't contain the quote? Also I believe the Iranians have very limited http://www.offshore-mag.com/index/article-display/2258304801/articles/offshore/production/middle-east/2010/03/iran-set_to_start.html" experience, and none in deep water.

 

[rhody]

That link doesn't contain the quote? Also I believe the Iranians have very limited http://www.offshore-mag.com/index/article-display/2258304801/articles/offshore/production/middle-east/2010/03/iran-set_to_start.html" experience, and none in deep water.

mheslep,

You are correct, my fubar, I shouldn't have posted it in quotes, I was paraphrasing, and it seems providing a bad link as well, I apologize. Here is a good http://www.upi.com/Science_News/Res...o-help-with-US-oil-spill/UPI-31871272993408/" with the real quote.

Heidar Bahmani, the managing director of the National Iranian Drill Co., said his company was ready to help contain the spill, Iran's state-funded broadcaster Press TV reports

"Our oil industry experts in the field of drilling can contain the rig leakage in the Gulf of Mexico and prevent an ecological disaster in that part of the world," he said.

As you stated maybe it was more a political message than one of real intent to really make a difference. I don't know for sure, but the mere fact that they would make an offer to assist is what struck me as worth mentioning, even if it was from a position of "false bravado".

P.S. This article was published on May 4th.

Rhody...

 

[EnumaElish]

Has anyone heard of oil-eating bacteria considered as part of a solution in the Gulf?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/05/050517063708.htm

 

[magpies]

Anyone got any good pics of the gulf as it is today?

 

[IcedEcliptic]

I've seen them on CNN, and Cousteau's footage of oil deep in the water column. I couldn't watch too much without feeling despair.

 

[rhody]

For those who ponder unintended consequences, consider this, fast forward to late August early September this year and a category 3/4 hurricane takes a similar path that Katrina did a few years ago, making landfall with a north track along the Gulf Coast, what do you think will happen with the tidal surge as it washes oil of different viscosities into the sewer systems/water treatment facilities and land affected by the surge.

I shudder to think about the consequences, but consider the scenario possible. Let's hope and pray the Gulf Coast is spared this fate this season.

Rhody...

 

[rhody]

Media Dogpiling: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUS...esticNews&feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews"

Edit: I wonder if the Oil Industry and the current Administration have ever heard of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUBSAFE" .
If they haven't they should look into this program it has served the US Navy well since the 1963 sinking of the USS THRESHER (SSN-593) due to poor quality control and inspection techniques. No US Subs have been lost since. "[URL Science Committee on Subsafe Program Oct 2003
[/URL]
Rhody...

 

[rhody]

As if things couldn't get any weirder, they could, BP oil spill: 9 strange facts

Rhody...

 

[rhody]

The spill began April 22, and today is May 30, that makes it 38 days, estimates of oil being pumped from the broken well head: range: from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill" per day (at 42 gallons per barrel).

A http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_gallons_of_gas_does_a_tanker_truck_hold" holds 9000 gallons of fuel
A http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_feet_long_is_a_gas_tanker_semi_truck" is about 70 feet long.
A normal sized railroad http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_gallons_of_gas_does_a_railroad_tanker_car_hold" holds 30000 gallons of fuel
A http://chicago.railfan.net/cgi/photos.pl/?page=UTLX_661968" is about 60 feet long

Let's run some numbers:

Losing 25,000 barrels of oil a day at 42 gallons a barrel times 38 days = 39,900,000 gallons, rounded: 40,000,000.

Lets fill the railroad tankers: 40,000,000 / 30000 = 1333.3333 rounded = 1334

Lets fill the gas trucks: 40,000,000 / 9000 = 4444.4444 round = 4445

Lets see how much distance the railroad cars would span: 60 * 1334 = 80040 feet / 5280 feet per mile = 15.15 miles

Now the gas trucks: 4445 * 70 = 311150 / 5280 feet per mile = 58.92 miles

Lets take the best case at 5000 barrels a day, divide all answers by 5.

Number of railroad tankers = 1334 / 5 = 266.8 rounded to 269
Number gas trucks = 4445 / 5 = 889
Railroad tanker length = 15.15 / 5 = 3.05 miles
Gas truck length = 58.92 / 5 = 11.784 miles

Still sobering, I don't want to picture 100,000 barrels a day.

Rhody...

 

[mheslep]

The spill began April 22, and today is May 30, that makes it 38 days, estimates of oil being pumped from the broken well head: range: from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill" per day (at 42 gallons per barrel).

Or about 20 olympic swimming pools.

 

[rhody]

Or about 20 olympic swimming pools.

mheslep,

By my calculations: 40,000,000 gallons / http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source...yMeqlscUHAAAAqgQFT9BvUQs&fp=275a8ddf8a4c886f" = 61.72 pools worth, or divided by 5 for 5000 barrels a day = 12.34.

Rhody...

Used figures from top link in google search above...

 

[rhody]

Thinking outside of the box, maybe Craig Venter and his research facilities could do the whole world a huge favor and work on some enzymes that could consume/transform the oil into something benign, if anyone in the world could pull it off, it would be Ventor and his organization(s).

Rhody...

 

[mheslep]

mheslep,

By my calculations: 40,000,000 gallons / http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source...yMeqlscUHAAAAqgQFT9BvUQs&fp=275a8ddf8a4c886f" = 61.72 pools worth, or divided by 5 for 5000 barrels a day = 12.34.

<shrug>, i dunno. The USGS high side estimate with no insertion tube sucking off a portion is 19k bbls/day. For 40 days that's 31.9 million gals, or 49 O. pools worst case. Low side USGS estimate is 12k bbl/day, minus ~5k bbl/day pulled off via insertion tube for the last 30 days (?) is 20 O. pools, best case.

I suppose the more important metric is how much La marshland has been hit. So far per the Coastguard oil spill honcho a couple of days ago it was 50 acres, so I heard on air.

 

[rhody]

This is self explanatory: http://scienceblogs.com/speakeasyscience/2010/05/a_lethal_concentration.php"

Rhody...

 

[rhody]

Garrett's idea to stop the flow...

http://twitter.com/garrettlisi"
1. Drill an angled shaft 2000ft down, to within 100ft of the well shaft. Detonate a large conventional bomb, pinching off the well shaft. Done.
about 4 hours ago via web

Rhody...

TBone can you live with this then ? stealth comment ?

 

[rhody]

Ever wonder what the pressure in pounds per square inch is on the ocean floor one mile down near the well head ?

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/WindTunnel/Activities/fluid_pressure.html"

pressure:total = pressure:atmosphere + pressure:fluid

pressure:fluid = density * gravity * height

density = 1.03 * 10^3 Kg/m^3
gravity = 9.8 m/s^2
height = meters

pressure:atmosphere = 1.01 * 10^5 N/m^2
1 mile: 5280 feet = 1609.344 meters

pressure:atmosphere = 101,000
pressure:fluid = 1030 * 9.8 * 1609 = 16,241,246

pressure:total = 16,342,246 N/m^2

pounds per square inch = 2360 at one mile down, over one ton of force, pressure of ocean + pressure of atmosphere

Rhody...