Defining 'Truth': A Puzzling Quandary

[Nicomachus]

Alright, you haven't refuted any of my assertions. Which is not surprising as you began with a strawman of my rebuttal. This whole discourse between you and I began because you attempted to crticize my original post and you were wrong. Thus far most of the posters have only shown that they are ignorant of tautologies. I suppose you all think "a cow is a cow" may be a false statement but you would only be only be fools. Vacuous truth was included in order to show the validity of truth propositions which do not deductively lead to other truth propositions. Basically you have a made a long tirade against a minor point I presented and have done so erroneously. Again, the reason you have done this is because you do not understand the concept, I don't know how bluntly I can put it. You keep droning on about how vacuous truth is poetry and how the propositions do not reflect objective reality but in reality they do just that. You simply don't get it. Its not a puzzle. You have also further given evidence of your ignorance by stating that vacuous truths are somehow contradictory, huh?

Really, I can only draw a few conclusions from your nonsense. Either you do not accept the validity of tautologies, in which case you must stop using logic or you are simply uneducated or you are a relativist and have no way to justify any proposition you make or any position you hold. The fact of the matter is you don't get and you are, for lack of a better phrase, out of your league. Furthermore you keep droning on about some "sentence I copied and pasted" you should really examine your own positions before accusing me of plagiarism, if you mean the vacuously true statement it is a common example and if you were educated in logic, which you obviously are not, you would have known that.

As well the word is "ridiculous" and when you say "there are no red elephants" you only further show that my statement about red elephants is true. I think you are acting like a little child so I will explain it thusly: If I had asked "Do all red elephants exist in loaves of bread" the correct response would be "No you are a vagabond and a lunatic." but if I say ""Is it true that all red elephants exist in loaves of bread" the answer is clearly yes it is true, although it is not useful.

It is not false you have not proven it false and I do not think you have anyway to justify any proposition of truth as you do not accept tautologies, otherwise you would not attack criticize the tautological statements I have provided in my first and subsequent posts. If the validity of tautologies are not accepted then you cannot build any system of logic all you have provided is a foundation for nihilism. I suppose you simply chose to attack me for no reason because you don't agree with "a cow is a cow" but you do not have the ability to criticize it but vacuous truth simply goes over your head so you decided to lunge into an ignorant tirade of rubbish. Absolutely no refutations have you provided. As well I am not insinuating that tautologies and vacuous truths are significant in themselves, obviously they are not, it is you providing erroneous criticism. Again, you over inflated the signicance of the example of vacuous truth in my original post, it was not an exercise to "glow my intelligence" I simply corrected and refuted those who were spouting nonsense. I suppose you think the stolen-concept fallacy is valid, but what I am saying you have no foundation for any logical propositions so it is of no matter what you propose as there is no justification.

It is you who are boring me with statements of my intelligence. I have provided nothing but elementary statements hardly something for me to brag about. If you have feelings of inadequecy keep them to yourself. If you find a statement of mine to be *ridiculous* or stupid then I should expect you to say so and *justify* not this absurd rubbish you have provided thus far. I will save you the trouble, there is no way to refute my assertions unless possibly you produced a red elephant, of course, which did not exist in a loaf of bread or you could say "no you are false" but as you have suggested you have no foundation for reasoning therefore anything you say will be unjustified nonsense. Even so you have no provided any relativistic justification only lamented "objetive co-ordinates" but it simply shows that you do not understand the problem nor if nothing unless you statements only prove the validity of mine. Would you also argue the mathematical validity of the statement "2+2=4," although you have asserted that you do not accept "1=1." Previously, you stated that I have not corrected anyone and was incorrect in my original post entirely, if that is the case why is the only point you are bringing up the one you do not have mental ability to understand? Obviously, you should be able to reufte the other original points. Stop this nonsense; I have given you a chance and you have fallen short.
*Nico

-- I will provide a summation. All you have proven in all your responses to me is that you did not understand my original post and you don't know anything about logic or philosophy.

 

[Nicomachus]

TRUTH is only CERTAINTY in the objective sense, and I am just having some fun with Nico because he loves to argue and rave about his intelligence, yet he himself cannot explain in his own words what 'truth' is without copying and pasting or repeating examples of vacuous truths from wikepedia.com

I have grown sick of your accusations. Vacuous truths are well documented and the example I gave is very well known. I have not taken anything from wikipedia.com; you can't even spell it correctly. Why would I bother with some unscholarly hack of an encyclopedia such as that? No I am an academic so I am very familiar with all those. Keep the accusations to yourself. Again you simply prove that you don't know anything about this, you look it up on *wikipedia.org* and you think "Oh well I have never heard of this so Nico must have just stolen this from them." That does not logically follow either.
*Nico

 

[Moonrat]

Alright, you haven't refuted any of my assertions. .

huh?

you haven't read my post then...

Which is not surprising as you began with a strawman of my rebuttal.

Nico, you are USING fancy terms that describe FALSE in objective reality as evidence of 'truth'...

you are not talking about that which is TRUE.

you are talking about that which is FALSE

it that is not a refutation, I don't know what is..

This whole discourse between you and I began because you attempted to crticize my original post and you were wrong.

Please do what you do best and copy and paste the statement that I made that you say i s false, and if you are correct, then I will apologise. So far, in sounds like you are repeating yourself over and over again...

Thus far most of the posters have only shown that they are ignorant of tautologies.

perhaps, but this is not about tautologies, this is about 'truth', and you do not seem to be able to define, in your own words, what 'truth' is..

I suppose you all think "a cow is a cow" may be a false statement but you would only be only be fools.

I think that is a true statement...its the pink elephants that I am talking about. stop looking at words through your interpretation system, and just look at the words, simple.

Vacuous truth was included in order to show the validity of truth propositions which do not deductively lead to other truth propositions. Basically you have a made a long tirade against a minor point I presented and have done so erroneously.

If that was a minor statement used to show an example of an aspect of logic and nothing more, I apologise. However, that is not how I read it, I read your statement as an example of 'truth'

Again, the reason you have done this is because you do not understand the concept, I don't know how bluntly I can put it.

what do I not understand? If an opponent does not understand something you see clearly, then EXPLAIN it using your own words or approach it from another angle. Simple. Instead, you keep repeating over and over how ignorant I am as if that statement makes it so!

You keep droning on about how vacuous truth is poetry and how the propositions do not reflect objective reality but in reality they do just that. You simply don't get it. Its not a puzzle. You have also further given evidence of your ignorance by stating that vacuous truths are somehow contradictory, huh?

my friend, I am referring to your statement about elephants. you said it was 'true' none the less, and I said it is a FALSE statement. you said that, looking at the statement through the persepctive of logic, that it contains a 'vacuous truth' and then you ranted and raved about me and my ignorance for days, and still are...

so I say again, FINE, in logic, thay may be called or defined as a vacous truth, but in objective reality, THAT SENTENCE IS FALSE AND POETRY...


call it what you will, be it still contains the same co-ordinates

Really, I can only draw a few conclusions from your nonsense. Either you do not accept the validity of tautologies, in which case you must stop using logic or you are simply uneducated or you are a relativist and have no way to justify any proposition you make or any position you hold. The fact of the matter is you don't get and you are, for lack of a better phrase, out of your league.

ok FINE, please copy and paste a statement that I made that is not true but FALSE...

thank you, simple...

this is a discussion about that which is TRUE, this is not a discussion about logic or tautology, archeology, shamanism, or politics..I am not refuting that you understand tautology, I am saying you cannot define in your own words what makes something TRUE for ALL..


it is SIMPLE, keep it simple..


cont'

 

[Moonrat]

Furthermore you keep droning on about some "sentence I copied and pasted" you should really examine your own positions before accusing me of plagiarism, if you mean the vacuously true statement it is a common example and if you were educated in logic, which you obviously are not, you would have known that.

o nico, I was kidding, relax, have some fun in the discussion, I was not accusing you of plaguerism, just teasing you.

As well the word is "ridiculous" and when you say "there are no red elephants" you only further show that my statement about red elephants is true.

hehe, and you call me slow! yes, that does make your statement about red elephants true, yes, but do you know HOW?

Nico, keep it simple, all of your studying is quite valid and has it's place, but come on man, we are talking about 'what makes something true'.


Do red elephants exist in loaves of bread? Huh? do they? If I said that, would I be crazy, a poet, or, in your case, a tautologist?

Look at the words, not how you interpret them, simple. Thanks

I think you are acting like a little child so I will explain it thusly: If I had asked "Do all red elephants exist in loaves of bread" the correct response would be "No you are a vagabond and a lunatic." but if I say ""Is it true that all red elephants exist in loaves of bread" the answer is clearly yes it is true, although it is not useful.

My friend, are you now suggesting that there is no disctinction between 'true' and 'vacuous truth' ?

It is not false you have not proven it false and I do not think you have anyway to justify any proposition of truth as you do not accept tautologies, otherwise you would not attack criticize the tautological statements I have provided in my first and subsequent posts.

I am not attacking tautology, I am attacking the statement red elephants exist in loaves of bread being claimed as true.

If the validity of tautologies are not accepted then you cannot build any system of logic all you have provided is a foundation for nihilism. I suppose you simply chose to attack me for no reason because you don't agree with "a cow is a cow" but you do not have the ability to criticize it but vacuous truth simply goes over your head so you decided to lunge into an ignorant tirade of rubbish. Absolutely no refutations have you provided.

Is this a refutation?

You say red elephants is a true statement.

I say it is a false statement.

you say it is a vacuous truth. I say, yes, it is a vacous truth in a logic set, but a vacuous truth, in this instance especially, is another way of saying FALSE.

I then say you are making no distinctions between the two, vacous truths, and truths...

you do not except my statement even after I refuted yours. where is there no 'refutes' ?;-)

As well I am not insinuating that tautologies and vacuous truths are significant in themselves, obviously they are not, it is you providing erroneous criticism. Again, you over inflated the signicance of the example of vacuous truth in my original post, it was not an exercise to "glow my intelligence" I simply corrected and refuted those who were spouting nonsense. I suppose you think the stolen-concept fallacy is valid, but what I am saying you have no foundation for any logical propositions so it is of no matter what you propose as there is no justification.

let me tell you how I see this discussion.

If a born again christian makes the statement " Jesus is God. " he is using his system of thought to make that a true statement.

However, that is not a true statement, even though his system of thought describes it as such...

You are using logic to make the red elephants a true statement, and if I am over critiquing you in this regard and you actually agree with me, then cool! end of discussion

It is you who are boring me with statements of my intelligence. I have provided nothing but elementary statements hardly something for me to brag about. If you have feelings of inadequecy keep them to yourself. If you find a statement of mine to be *ridiculous* or stupid then I should expect you to say so and *justify* not this absurd rubbish you have provided thus far. I will save you the trouble, there is no way to refute my assertions unless possibly you produced a red elephant, of course, which did not exist in a loaf of bread or you could say "no you are false" but as you have suggested you have no foundation for reasoning therefore anything you say will be unjustified nonsense.

Red elephants existing in loaves of bread defies laws of physics, which I accept as true, there fore, I do not need to produce a red elephant to show you it is false. Even if I was to follow your logic here, that would not make your statement 'true', at best it would be 'mystery', and that is giving you the benifit of the doubt in the matter.

Even so you have no provided any relativistic justification only lamented "objetive co-ordinates" but it simply shows that you do not understand the problem nor if nothing unless you statements only prove the validity of mine. Would you also argue the mathematical validity of the statement "2+2=4," although you have asserted that you do not accept "1=1."

I do accept that 1=1. when did I say that I did not? please copy and paste, thank you

2+2=4 is an objective co-ordinate that all agree on, it does not carry the same weight as 'red elephants'

Previously, you stated that I have not corrected anyone and was incorrect in my original post entirely, if that is the case why is the only point you are bringing up the one you do not have mental ability to understand? Obviously, you should be able to reufte the other original points. Stop this nonsense; I have given you a chance and you have fallen short.

You say, using a logic set, that red elephants is true using the deductions of tautology. I say that is is FALSE, not true, yet, it is a 'vacuous truth' in logic but that is the same thing as FALSE and does not help to define what 'true' is.

If that is not your argument, I am sorry, I am only going on the words you write and nothing else.

-- I will provide a summation. All you have proven in all your responses to me is that you did not understand my original post and you don't know anything about logic or philosophy

yeah, you said that about 20 times so far, and saying that 50x does not make it true. Although I do have much to learn about systems of logic, I do understand them when I come across them, and nothing you have said so far in this discourse to me defines what 'true' is. I understand what 'dialectic' is very clearly, and use my system to refute your system, that is my summation, and you still have not taken one statement of mine and held it up and picked it apart like I have of yours.

Red elephants is not a true statement, it is a false statement. it may be called a vacuous truth is logic, but that is the SAME thing, and you cannot admit that nor distinguish that yet in conversation...


Moonrat

 

[Moonrat]

I have grown sick of your accusations. Vacuous truths are well documented and the example I gave is very well known. I have not taken anything from wikipedia.com; you can't even spell it correctly. Why would I bother with some unscholarly hack of an encyclopedia such as that? No I am an academic so I am very familiar with all those. Keep the accusations to yourself. Again you simply prove that you don't know anything about this, you look it up on *wikipedia.org* and you think "Oh well I have never heard of this so Nico must have just stolen this from them." That does not logically follow either.
*Nico

:surprise: :surprise: :surprise:


I was KIDDING...do you know where humor plays into the conversation? can you use logic to understand humor? No I don't think so and perhaps you need to step outside of your logic box, have a beer, and laugh at the jokes, I mean, come on Nico, yer funny!

However, using the pristine dialectic that I use, I CAN understand humor and can even quanitify it!

Love

Moonrat...

 

[Nicomachus]

Vacuously true statements are true stop being ridiculous. If you do not accept tautologies as true, which is what you have done and you have admitted you did not accept any of my original statements ergo you do not accept tautologies ergo you have no justification to use logic. I freely admit you may use logic and arrive at proper conclusions but you have no way to justify it under you relativistic system.

When I wrote that you haven't refuted anything I have written is because you haven't. What you have provided are naked assertions "no that is false." You have not justified it. When you keep referring to pink elephants and the fact that you have never seen a red elephant you only show that you don't understand the problem. The reason it is true is because there are no such things, the set is nothing and nothing has no potentiality. You should look this up on wikipedia or consult a real handbook on logic or some other such resource if you still do not understand it, I feel rather embarrassed for you. They are not false simply because you say they are there is some argument to be made about vacuous truths but you have not made any only "I'm too dense to know what the statement means" assertions. Nevertheless, obviously my original post was not about vacuous truths, have you no reading comprehension? Go back and read. As well stop asking me if I know "how" I know a proposition is true it is pedantic. Are you sure you do not deny axioms?

Truth is a relational property of propositions but this is not this relativism you are droning on about " the phrase 'Jesus is God' is true for a Christian" is not a truth in the way that you think it is. The particular statement has no real meaning but that is another matter. My original post was to show people how silly they were being by not accepting tautologies, misunderstanding the nature of truth, employing the Stolen-Concept Fallacy in order to deny truth, and so forth. Look, I don't care of you are an OS12 or an OT12 and you've met John Travolta you don't know what you are talking about. Simple. The fact you keep responding to tell me to use "my own words" is just another one of your ad hominem accusations that I am employing plagiarism. I have done nothing of the sort.

You have provided no refutations, just naked assertions. Furthermore what you are trying to do is to remove any justification for logic by denying tautological truths, which is what you have been doing this entire time though pompously deny it. I don't care what your cult has to say about this you are simply wrong. Honestly, I don't even know what you are trying to argue. You did not have the reading ability to understand what I posted and you blasted into this tirade not knowing anything of what I was talking about and you keep going on and on. I repeat myself because you repeat yourself the only difference is that I provide justification and I show you the ramifications of your nonsense.
*Nico

 

[honestrosewater]

My middle name is Alethea. What kind of truth is that?

 

[Rick Sobie]

This thread reminds me of the kind of thread you might find on GLP.

(Godlikeproductions.com)

Everything but the dancing bananas.

 

[honestrosewater]

Rick, where can we get these dancing bananas?

The visionary is the only true realist.
-Federico Fellini

 

[Moonrat]

Nico, I promise you will get tired of this much faster than I will. I want to thank you, for I needed the practice, and each post of yours helps me and my ability to discern with complete clarity.

Vacuously true statements are true stop being ridiculous.

If this statement is 'true', then that means that there is no distinction in the following:

2+2=4

The Sun

This sentence begins with the word this.

Red Elephants exist in loaves of bread.

If you do not accept tautologies as true, which is what you have done and you have admitted you did not accept any of my original statements ergo you do not accept tautologies ergo you have no justification to use logic. I freely admit you may use logic and arrive at proper conclusions but you have no way to justify it under you relativistic system.

yes, nico, I see where you make your error. Thank you for finally admiting it. I accept tautology as a objective perspective to arrive at truth, but it is NOT a definition of 'how' truth is arrived at for all. Objective reality does not follow the laws of Tautology, and I think that is where you are making your error.

It is as if you are saying that all laws that govern reality must fit inside of elemenatary logic, and if they cannot, they must not exist! (that's where YOUR, not elementary logic, irrational)


So, forcing this logic on everything and everyone, let's also accept all of these statements as true too, shall we?

Nico is a squiggly chicken frog that jumps and cackles blueberry songs.

Jesus is God.

God is Jesus.

Using and forcing elemenatary logic on this statements, we can now end the grand discussion!

Yet perplexingly we are left with NOTHING! (ahh, vacuous, yes, I agree!)

You cannot understand universal and quantum reality using symbolic logic, sorry. You cannot wish away that which you cannot define on the 'faith' you are rigidly placing on logic.

When I wrote that you haven't refuted anything I have written is because you haven't.

Is that also a 'tautological statement'? :surprise:

I most certainly have, your just a little pokey. Red Elephants existing in loaves of bread does NOT share the same qaulity of truth that '2+2=4' does. One statement exists and FUNCTIONS in objective reality and the other is poetry.

You are confusing 'axiom and proposition' with laws of reality..opps!

What you have provided are naked assertions "no that is false." .

please copy and paste which naked assertion you are referring to. thank you.

You have not justified it. When you keep referring to pink elephants and the fact that you have never seen a red elephant you only show that you don't understand the problem.

there is no problem other than the one you have created in your mind. I am not in conflict with pink elephants, nor symbolic logic, only your assertions that pink elephants is indistinguishable from '2+2=4'

The reason it is true is because there are no such things, the set is nothing and nothing has no potentiality.

it is not 'true' it is 'vacuously' true, which is the same thing, as you just mentioned, as FALSE.

you are saying

TRUE= Vacous truth.

and it does not. true exists in objective reality and that which we all can agree on. Like this sentence is truly a sentence, there is no argument or point of view that contradicts that. that is true for CERTAINTY...

you are making things 'true' in your mind that do not exist for all of us. you have trained your mind to no longer distinguish objective reality but symbolic logic.

now, axiom and proposition is a true logical order, yes, but it is not magick! just because you place your words inside of such axiom or proposition does not create them into a reality!

come on man, this is simple stuff!

You should look this up on wikipedia or consult a real handbook on logic or some other such resource if you still do not understand it, I feel rather embarrassed for you.

hehe, well I sure hope they can do a better job than your doin' here!

They are not false simply because you say they are there is some argument to be made about vacuous truths but you have not made any only "I'm too dense to know what the statement means" assertions.

Things are false when they do not objectivly or scientifically represent our environment outside of us. Like art is false. Spiderman does not really exist, and King Lear does not speak in Iambic Pentameter.

Nevertheless, obviously my original post was not about vacuous truths, have you no reading comprehension? Go back and read. As well stop asking me if I know "how" I know a proposition is true it is pedantic. Are you sure you do not deny axioms?

quite sure. I just deny that the laws of physics follow the laws of axiom and proposition.

Truth is a relational property of propositions but this is not this relativism you are droning on about " the phrase 'Jesus is God' is true for a Christian" is not a truth in the way that you think it is. The particular statement has no real meaning but that is another matter. My original post was to show people how silly they were being by not accepting tautologies, misunderstanding the nature of truth, employing the Stolen-Concept Fallacy in order to deny truth, and so forth.

propositions do not create truth, they can only contain or describe a specific quantified truth. Jesus is God is not an objective truth, but a personal one for Christians. In objective reality, 'Jesus is God' is also not false either. It is a mysterious statement in which one can have no proof one way or the other, therefore, it is up to the subjective environment of the individual to accept or not accept it as such for them. It is not a one for all truth.


I don't think, based on our discussion, that you are capable of showing people that they are misunderstanding the nature of truth, because still, after this long debate, you STILL cannot define what makes something 'true'

you may understand symbolic logic, I do not deny this, but you use it rather subjectivly and deny that which exists outside of it..which is irrational.

Look, I don't care of you are an OS12 or an OT12 and you've met John Travolta you don't know what you are talking about.

this is another irrational and quite illogical thing you do in discussion. you try to define your opponent so you can make their ideas false. First I was a nihilist, then a relativist, now I must be a scientologist, right?

Yikes! well the real moonrat please standup!

I suggest stop discussing with the silly versions of Moonrat in your head and address the ideas in this discussion. Your being a politician pretending to be a philosopher and I am sorry, that just does not work inside of rational discussion.

Simple. The fact you keep responding to tell me to use "my own words" is just another one of your ad hominem accusations that I am employing plagiarism. I have done nothing of the sort.

I already said I was joking TWICE about that, yet you still use this inside of discussion!

please try to focus and stay on point.

answer this question please.

are you saying there is NO disctinction between the following statements


2+2=4

This sentence begins and ends with the word this.

Red Elephants exist in loaves of bread.

answer the question, please,using what methodology you wish.

You have provided no refutations, just naked assertions.

your repeating yourself inside of the discussion again. sorry, doesn't work.

Furthermore what you are trying to do is to remove any justification for logic by denying tautological truths, which is what you have been doing this entire time though pompously deny it.

I do not deny that they serve a function. I deny that they function in all enviroments all the time.

I don't care what your cult has to say about this you are simply wrong.

Um, I would be very careful about slander in a place of public media, little politician man. I am not involved in any organisation, group, club, cult, or anything of the sort. I am challenging your ideas and you keep finding the need to define 'me' so my ideas will be false in return.

sorry, does not work, won't save you, and won't make red elephants appear in objective reality.

Honestly, I don't even know what you are trying to argue. You did not have the reading ability to understand what I posted and you blasted into this tirade not knowing anything of what I was talking about and you keep going on and on.

well if that is true, I certaintly hope you are having as much fun as I am then...




:rofl: :rofl:

 

[Moonrat]

My middle name is Alethea. What kind of truth is that?

hehe, assuming you are not lying and you are being honest, that would just make that a simple 'truth' in objective reality that any and all can see by reading your birth certificate!

we do not need to run to our nearest community college and sign up for a course in symbolic logic to say that...

 

[Moonrat]

Rick, where can we get these dancing bananas?

they are in the loaves of bread with the red elephants, hurry, quick, before they get squashed!

The visionary is the only true realist.
-Federico Fellini

I commend you on your choice! My favorite filmmaker...

 

[Nicomachus]

You continue to be ridiculous. The problem still lies in the fact that you do not have the mental capacity nor the reading comprehension to understand any of the assertions that have been presented. You saying that I making an equivocation between all propositions. Honestly, I don't know where you are getting this, you are being a moron. This is a non sequitur:

If this statement is 'true', then that means that there is no distinction in the following:

2+2=4

The Sun

This sentence begins with the word this.

Red Elephants exist in loaves of bread.

Are you really this ridiculous? Now you are saying that all truth propositions are identical because a statement you don't want to be true is true. The reason I say you have no justification for anything is because you have denied tautologies, obviously tautologies do not lead to further deductive conclusions but it is a frame work from which to build a system of logic. Without such system you can gain no meaningful conclusions and if you deny the axioms of logic but continue to use logic you simply have no justification for doing so and are most probably a hypocrite. You are out of your league; stop this.

yes, nico, I see where you make your error. Thank you for finally admiting it. I accept tautology as a objective perspective to arrive at truth, but it is NOT a definition of 'how' truth is arrived at for all. Objective reality does not follow the laws of Tautology, and I think that is where you are making your error.

The laws of tautology? huh? Stop being ridiculous. I suppose you mean the laws of logic, I guess, if you think logic does not represent reality then you are being a moron and further deny axioms because you do not accept as self-evident and therefore do not accept them. Look, I can define you however I want, you haven't provided anything substantive in way of refutation just naked assertions. You ask me to tell "what naked assertions" nearly every thing you have used to contradict me has been naked assertions. If they have not been naked assertions then they have just been more of your ignorant nonsense displaying you don't understand anything about philosophy, i.e. your rubbish about poetry.

It is as if you are saying that all laws that govern reality must fit inside of elemenatary logic, and if they cannot, they must not exist! (that's where YOUR, not elementary logic, irrational)

The laws of logic are self evident if you do not accept them then fine but do not continue to use them nor say that you accept them. Although, I freely admit that you deny logic as you have contradicted at least the law of identity and the law of non-contradiction. You have said you do not accept "a cow is a cow" and you obviously agree that something can "both be A and not be A within the same respect." It appears you are even more ridiculous than even I suspect.

So, forcing this logic on everything and everyone, let's also accept all of these statements as true too, shall we?

Nico is a squiggly chicken frog that jumps and cackles blueberry songs.

Jesus is God.

God is Jesus.

Other than the last two which are not really meaningful the first one is false. What you have done is equate "Nico" with nothing, while that may be amusing, you still don't understand. It does not follow the principles you think it does. You cannot say any nonsensical statement and expect it to be vacuously true, you still don't get it. Obviously you are not educated. Yes I am defining you and it is not an attempt to show that you are wrong it is simply side commentary. But in all reality you have defined yourself.

Red Elephants existing in loaves of bread does NOT share the same qaulity of truth that '2+2=4' does. One statement exists and FUNCTIONS in objective reality and the other is poetry.

Stop being stupid. Yes I have admitted the vacuous truth is more a tautology, and OBVIOUSLY you cannot compare a vacuous truth with a synthetic statement. Why are you being so ridiculous as to compare something that is really tautological with a synthetic statement? But yes you are not educated enough to know what that means either. By definition a tautological statement cannot be a synthetic statement, you are absurd. I don't see why you think tautological, analytic, and synthetic propositions cannot all have truth values, it does not follow. Basically what you have said is "0=0 cannot be true if 2+2=4." Ridiculous, your cult can't save you from that.

please copy and paste which naked assertion you are referring to. thank you.
[/quote

I have told you repeatedly that all of your say-so's are naked assertions. When you say it is "false" with no justification then it is a naked assertion.

it is not 'true' it is 'vacuously' true, which is the same thing, as you just mentioned, as FALSE.

you are saying

TRUE= Vacous truth.

You keep saying that something that is true is false, how much more in denial of reality can you be? When you say that I making the equivocation "TRUE=Vacuous truth" you only show that you have no reading comprehension. I have never equated a truth proposition with the concept of true. Obviously an instantian of a property is not the same thing as that property. Go learn something.

you are making things 'true' in your mind that do not exist for all of us. you have trained your mind to no longer distinguish objective reality but symbolic logic.

now, axiom and proposition is a true logical order, yes, but it is not magick! just because you place your words inside of such axiom or proposition does not create them into a reality!

No, you still don't get it. I am not attempting to "Create them into a reality" you are not making any sense. It all stems from the simple fact that you don't get it and you are out of your league. I really hate to so arrogantly put it that way but that is the simple fact of the matter.

Things are false when they do not objectivly or scientifically represent our environment outside of us. Like art is false. Spiderman does not really exist, and King Lear does not speak in Iambic Pentameter.

You are making a faulty equivocation.

quite sure. I just deny that the laws of physics follow the laws of axiom and proposition.

Then you are a moron. You don't even know what you are saying. And curiously when you say "the laws of axiom" you make yourself look even more ridiculous. Axioms are not predicated on anything, stop being so pompously ridiculous.

propositions do not create truth

Wow, you said something that wasn't ridiculous. Too bad the rest of that sentence was silly.

this is another irrational and quite illogical thing you do in discussion. you try to define your opponent so you can make their ideas false. First I was a nihilist, then a relativist, now I must be a scientologist, right?

My commentary is not my argument, I have provided sufficient justification. I think you are probably a hypocrite of a relativist but not a scientologist, but cultist? Most certaintly; more of the Gene Ray variety though.

Um, I would be very careful about slander in a place of public media, little politician man. I am not involved in any organisation, group, club, cult, or anything of the sort. I am challenging your ideas and you keep finding the need to define 'me' so my ideas will be false in return.

Again no. I know your ideas are ridiculous; you really haven't presented much other than a denial of axioms while you pompously misunderstand all of my assertions.

And that concludes yet another needless rebuttal.

In closing.

well if that is true, I certaintly hope you are having as much fun as I am then...

No Bubblefish, I'm not having fun. I think you are a moron with the foolosophy of a gas station attendant and you may think the same about me but I have demonstrated that I am nothing of the sort.
*Nico

 

[Moonrat]

hehe, glad to see we are finely getting somewhere!

You continue to be ridiculous. The problem still lies in the fact that you do not have the mental capacity nor the reading comprehension to understand any of the assertions that have been presented. You saying that I making an equivocation between all propositions.

Nico, I do admit that I am playing with you , yes, but it is YOU who are telling me that there is an equivocation between all propositions, I am only going on your words. You say that red elephants is a true statement. If you were to say that it was true based on the axiom and proposition of it's structure, that is another story, but you use the quality of truth arrived at in logic to state that is a 'true statement' in the objective sense of the definition of the words.


I do not reject logic, I follow the axiom and proposition, I only go on the words you write, and based on the words you write, you don't seem to make the distinction in your own words...

this thread is about what 'truth' is. True is a category, not an object. It is a category where we place information that can be independently verified. It is not an esoteric concept, a religious concept, or even a concept that can only be arrived at using symbolic logic

Are you really this ridiculous? Now you are saying that all truth propositions are identical because a statement you don't want to be true is true.

see? here is where you make it so easy for me to play with you. really. I cannot make something in objective reality true or not. it exists or it does not exist. when you write 'true' in regards to red elephants, please write 'vacuous truth' and make the distinction. If you do NOT make the distinction in your dialouge, I therefore can only assume you cannot make the distinction in your mind.
keep it simple. 2+2=4 is a true statement, with or without symbolic logic. "red elephants exist in loaves of bread' needs it's axioms and propositions to be true inside of symbolic logic, no symbolic logic, NO TRUTH, just poetry...

Red Elephants exist, she said, in loaves of bread
she said, as her eyes turned to the left and to the right
playing in a circus, they must exist
in loaves of bread, as do all creeping things large and small...


I can use that as prose, I cannot use that sentence to explain the laws of physics or the universe around me. I can use axiom and proposition to understand what is true, or how I can come to understand where the truth lay, but it is not permanent! axiom and proposition are a formula, they are not God, reality does not bend around them...

it is the distinction that I request you make, and nothing more

The reason I say you have no justification for anything is because you have denied tautologies, obviously tautologies do not lead to further deductive conclusions but it is a frame work from which to build a system of logic. Without such system you can gain no meaningful conclusions and if you deny the axioms of logic but continue to use logic you simply have no justification for doing so and are most probably a hypocrite. You are out of your league; stop this.

Again, and this is why I continue to play with you, I do not deny tautologies, I just deny that they exist in all enviroments all the time.

I don't deny addition, but I don't use addition when I need to use subtraction...subtraction does not negate the laws of addition, it is just they they are MOOT when in this enviroment...

I suppose you mean the laws of logic, I guess, if you think logic does not represent reality then you are being a moron and further deny axioms because you do not accept as self-evident and therefore do not accept them.

they do not represent ALL of reality. Like they fall apart in quantum physics. and when they tell me that "Red Elephants' is a true statement, well, that is absurd! Unless you STATE the axiom and proposition, i.e it's 'formula' is true, while the 'words' have no bearing in objective reality.

it is only a formula, it does not MAKE it true...

 

[Moonrat]

Look, I can define you however I want, you haven't provided anything substantive in way of refutation just naked assertions. You ask me to tell "what naked assertions" nearly every thing you have used to contradict me has been naked assertions. If they have not been naked assertions then they have just been more of your ignorant nonsense displaying you don't understand anything about philosophy, i.e. your rubbish about poetry.

Ok, I know NOTHING about ANYTHING. Now, explain to me again how Red Elephants are true OUTSIDE of axiom and proposition again? Explain how tautology defines what is 'true'? Explain to me what makes something 'true' for ALL? This sentence begins with the word this, what makes this sentence 'true'? axiom? or honesty?




(the thing is, Nico, is you cannot define the inherent paradox. Am I incorrect in stating that symbolic logic will not allow for paradox? Well, paradox is a component of reality, and if you reject paradox, you find yourself insisting that red elephants are true, without even realising it)

The laws of logic are self evident if you do not accept them then fine but do not continue to use them nor say that you accept them

huh? ( please read that statement again and catch your own contradictions. You just told me that the laws of logic are self evident when I do not except them, which is fine as long as I do not continue to use them or say I accept them. that makes no sense. Please calm down and think rationaly about what you are writing, you make it even easier for me to play with you.)

Other than the last two which are not really meaningful the first one is false. What you have done is equate "Nico" with nothing, while that may be amusing, you still don't understand. It does not follow the principles you think it does. You cannot say any nonsensical statement and expect it to be vacuously true, you still don't get it. Obviously you are not educated. Yes I am defining you and it is not an attempt to show that you are wrong it is simply side commentary. But in all reality you have defined yourself.

well, they are all NOT TRUE. which leaves us with two alternatives only. either false, or mystery.

If it is not an attempt to show that I am wrong, why is it that I need to be uneducated, ignorant, a scientologist, a relatavist, a cult member, or a nihilist for you to be right?

Stop being stupid. Yes I have admitted the vacuous truth is more a tautology, and OBVIOUSLY you cannot compare a vacuous truth with a synthetic statement. Why are you being so ridiculous as to compare something that is really tautological with a synthetic statement? But yes you are not educated enough to know what that means either. By definition a tautological statement cannot be a synthetic statement, you are absurd. I don't see why you think tautological, analytic, and synthetic propositions cannot all have truth values, it does not follow.

aiyee! good, we are getting somewhere, only you are half right, for that is ALL I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS WHOLE TIME, that they share 'truth' , or that which is TRUE, but you have to DISTINGUISH THEM in discussion...

which leads me back to my question to you which you still fail to answer, what then is the 'true' that they all share? ONE component shared amongst THREE distinct propositions...what is then the definition, or what defines that which is shared?



whew! finally, I will even let you take the credit for that if you want! good show.

Basically what you have said is "0=0 cannot be true if 2+2=4." Ridiculous, your cult can't save you from that.

I have NOT been saying that. it is you who have interpreted that because you are locked inside of your logic box. please stop with the silly cult refrences, they won't help you. Let's assume that I am a mooney manson family member with ties to scientology and the Masons, that still does not help you define what true is, nor does it negate what I have said about what makes something 'true'

"Things are false when they do not objectivly or scientifically represent our environment outside of us. Like art is false. Spiderman does not really exist, and King Lear does not speak in Iambic Pentameter."

You are making a faulty equivocation.

o my god, is that a naked assertion or is that a naked assertion!

I have never equated a truth proposition with the concept of true. Obviously an instantian of a property is not the same thing as that property. Go learn something.

hehe, then why do you keep writing that vacuous truths are true? shall I find where you wrote that and copy and paste it? Ok, here goes...

Originally Posted by Nicomachus
Vacuously true statements are true stop being ridiculous.

My commentary is not my argument,

then why introduce irrelevant and false information into the discussion?

I have provided sufficient justification. I think you are probably a hypocrite of a relativist but not a scientologist, but cultist? Most certaintly; more of the Gene Ray variety though.

who is Gene Ray?

define cult

I must be a cult of one, I guess...

No Bubblefish, I'm not having fun. I think you are a moron with the foolosophy of a gas station attendant and you may think the same about me but I have demonstrated that I am nothing of the sort.
*Nico

*sniff* awww, you called me bubblefish, *sniff* that is so cute! the rest was kind of funny, 'foolosophy'..haha, I like that, what a (pardon the pun in relation) what a gas!

I do not think you are a fool, I think you are an educated man and I thank you for the discussion and I have learned from it. I just don't think you understand yet how to fully distinquish between true and false, objective and subjective, and you have some deep seated issues with paradox, but that is quite a common problem. You also could use a bit more humor, and you WAAAAY over use the word 'rediculous', but hey, we will just stick with 'truth' in this thread and not your poor usage of prose or poetry...


Moo'rat

 

[honestrosewater]

Moonrat, Nico *did* distinguish vacuous truth from other truth. Do you not see the word "vacuous"? You are only playing with yourself.

 

[Moonrat]

Moonrat, Nico *did* distinguish vacuous truth from other truth. Do you not see the word "vacuous"? You are only playing with yourself.

well that seems to be a matter of controversy then... :rofl: he did not define truth other than 'vacuous' in my discussion with him, however, I did not read the whole thread or other things that he wrote other than where I started with him...

and yes, I am playing with myself *and* him, you know, it takes two to tango...

 

[Nicomachus]

Alright, this has moved beyond the point of any possible fruitful discussion. You basically hijacked this thread to erroneously crticize a small point of mine because you are ignorant. I have explained this more times than is necessary and you act is if I am just repeating myself and you do not understand the substance of my assertions. I will say this before I continue, what you have failed to do is understand the differences and the commonality of necessary, analytic, logical, and contingent truth propositions. This is all over your head.

However, I have taken a little look at your website Moonrat/Bubblefish and I now see the error of my ways everyone. I was "arguing" with an idiot. I decided to, instead responding to your repitive nonsense (and if you don't see how "art=false" is a faulty equivocation than you are an absurd little person) I would share some new found knowledge of your perspective and your highly irrational and chaotic mind.

Ladies and Gentlemen, this Moonrat, is actually an agent of an absurd Internet cult/movement or whatever you want to call it spawned out of some anti-war agenda or something. Here is the website so everyone can follow along:

http://www.highintelligence.com/

This the home page but to save you the trouble please look here:
http://www.highintelligence.com/bubblefish.htm

Yes everyone, this is why I call him/her bubblefish. Actualy the reason Moonrat is on this board is because of this "infiltration," see here:

"Bubblefish infiltrates Internet BBS! [lurk.withdraw.upon them] "
Please don't think this inane; we haven't gotten to the good stuff yet.

Moonrat’s cult is more properly referred to as “OS 012,” which I have gathered to mean some kind of new software for one’s brain, whatever that is. This is the “global dialectic” he/she keeps spouting about as if he is continuing some noble Greek tradition. But enough build up. From what I have found there are two supposed version of OS12 and they are “user” and “basic” though I don’t know what any of that poppycock means but let’s take a look at what the mind of Moonrat has in store for us in Basic. URL=http://www.highintelligence.com/versionBASIC3.0.htm]Click here.[/URL] Let’s see what this most curious mind has in store for us:

“Begin here: O = mystery. 1 = true. 2 = false. “ Ok …

I’ll save some trouble, the first few paragraphs are just about that memetic garbage anyway carrying on.

“Ideas are the seed of ALL action {Ideas are nouns that are the potential of verbs}” Well, as profound as that is …

“ALL IDEAS CONFLICT. [This is the very nature of the universe itself]” … uh huh … wow …

“All ideas [in conflict] seem to be one or the other. Good/Bad. Right/Wrong. Male/Female. This/That. Light/Dark. Strong/Weak. Yin/Yang. Me/You. Us/Them. Oppo/site. “

I wonder if Moonrat/Bubblesfish knows what a false-dichotomy is?

“All ideas can also be true or they can also be false [This is an important thing to observe]” I almost lost my lunch to this one, what a laugh this guy, he was talking about humor, wow. Despite being barely intelligible this is absurd.

“[OS 012 can either be true, or it can be false, right?]” Well that’s right, if it were meaningful.

“A ‘King’ idea is what we all bring into the conversation. However, if we are to agree, there can only be one true ‘King’. Therefore, discussion becomes an art and a game of strategy, for one of us has to lose a ‘false’ idea that we believe to be true. When we lose a false idea or a false king that we have, we only have lost by winning a new and better idea or King that will serve us better.Both sides come to the table with a different King, but leave with the same one. Both sides then can both win in every discussion. Both sides leave in synergy.
King against King!
{By letting them fight, we learn that when one of them wins, it does so only because it serves BOTH SIDES better. King ideas fight to make BOTH SIDES WIN} “

Wow, I don’t know if this is idealistic gibberish or if it is completely unintelligible maddening nonsense.

“ON GUARD!” Yes …

“OS 012 is an ©I-dea whose time has come. ©OS 012 is a collection of IDEAS that have been hard won in the field of ‘battle’. [Ideas that have been fought and discussed for thousands of years] Through these battles, OS 012 has had and will have many more contributors.
[OS 012 is created through internet discussion] ©OS 012 BASIC has been formulated by many people. Many of them may never even meet. “

blah blah blah. Other than some anti-war tirade I couldn’t find anything of substance in OS12.

“[The ‘battle’ however, has just begun. Many more challenges lay ahead] OS 012 will ‘win’ all of them.” Delusions of Persecution and Delusions of Grandeur.

“OS 012 is an *OBJECT that we all can agree on.” Well isn’t that sweet. Sounds like relativism to please the dumb masses.

“OS 012 is a simple way to understand the true nature of all our ideas and words that we think or speak, privatly or openly.” People, tell me this doesn’t sound like a cult.

“When we understand the nature of all our ideas, we understand ourselves from a much larger and more interesting perspective.” Many a fortune cooke have we eaten, eh?

“We have to know the difference between what we say is a [true] idea, a [false] idea, and an idea that is [both] true& false. [True/False] = Mystery “
Wow, put the pipe down.

“0 is mystery. It is when something is both true and false at once. This is the UNKNOWN. No-thing. 1 is True. Mind. Science. Objective. Honesty. 2 is False. Feelings. Art. Subjective. Inspiration.”
What is this, a game of Yahtzee?

“These are the only categories your mind can ever understand. All ideas and thoughts and words and memes are either true or false or mystery.”
False dichotomy.

“The 0, the 1, and the 2 That’s all there is to it. Smile. That is OS 012 BASIC “ What is L. Ron. Hubbard going to jump out of the cubbard now?

“When you can understand how to operate this as an effective tool, you will always be able to tell when others are lying. You will always be able to see when others may be hiding. You will win in every conversation and discussion all the time. You will become a master in communications and negotiations in ways that may utterly astound you.”

And we will have mind-meld session and Commander Spock will … yeah.

“[This is only accomplished in one way and one way only]” I’m just ticking off the boxes next to my cult checklist.

“False information never works inside of math and science.” Well, that’s just wrong with respect to science. I don’t know what you mean by “work” but it doesn’t sound like you know much about science or the history of science. Well, if you have been following along you have seen there is nothing of substance here, let’s “install” and see what we get.
Click here to begin Mind Melding Installation.

“Mystery can never be defined.Yet it is always right above and behind you. TURN AROUND! QUICK!“
Despite being absurd you do not fail to be completely insane. Amazing.

“There is always a factor infinite and unknown. This is 0. “ You should ask for your money back from whoever taught you math, if anyone ever did.

“OS 012 IDENTIFY:POLITICIAN://.read.below. When.people.deceive.themselves.and others.they.become.‘politicians’.”
I see, that’s why you keep calling me that it’s the vernacular of your cult. Well whatever. If you are following, I didn’t post it, but there is an interesting discourse about how 2=1 or some deceptive nonsense or something or other, blah blah blah. Do check it out everyone it is very interesting, in the way that you stare at the crazy man pillaging through the garbage dumpster.

“You have completed a full install.” um … Ok.

“[Resistance is futile]” Alrighty. (another checkmark) … “OS 012 High Intelligence Productions, all RITES REVERSED.” Not a cult? You sure?

Well that was interesting. You sir are a madman. Let’s see what some others have had to say about Moonrat/Bubblefish, don’t just take my word for it.
http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cach...4463&goto=nextnewest+"OS+012"+dialectic&hl=en
A forum member of Philosophyforums.com writes:

“I've never been more confused after visiting that website. Just tell me what it is and how it works, no more vague mysterious adjectives to get me to try it out from curiousity.”

I couldn’t agree more. Also, take note that Bubblefish was banned from the philosophy forums, gee I wonder why? And yes Bubblefish and Moonrat are the same entity/thing whatever.

Even the George Carlin forum people think Moonrat is crazy, and that is an accomplishment. See here.

What did that one person say “you are some spaced out mf’ers” or something to that effect? Yep.

Apparently the George Carlin don’t think much of your recruitment tactics. More.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:7y6bauXWFxgJ:occultforums.com/viewtopic.php%3Ft%3D9830%26view%3Dprevious+site:[url

Well there is much more I could post but I am bored and I think this is sufficient. Honestly, Moonrat/Babblefish/whatever you are a madman and I will not continue any discourse with you as I do not converse with madmen. You can think of this however you want. As well I know you will say I am trying to “define” you or something but you have defined yourself, I am more like “reporter.” Have fun with your cult.
*Nico

 

[Nicomachus]

Moonrat, Nico *did* distinguish vacuous truth from other truth. Do you not see the word "vacuous"? You are only playing with yourself.

Thank you honestrosewater =). I'm glad someone else is paying attention. I miss LifeGazer, if any of you remember him. He was wrong but he was for the most part knowledgeable of intellectual matters!
*Nico

 

[Moonrat]

Well thank you nico!

Yes, I was playing with you, for a reason. and the reason was that I was trying to instigate an OS 012 discussion, which I was unable to start earlier here...

Part of what I do is half-theatre, and for a purpose. Now that you have finally come along, let's get to it for real shall we?

Many people at first glance misinterpret OS 012 and the purpose of those discussions. I would say let's start a new thread over this, so I shall start one in response.

I have much to learn about symbolic logic, and YOU, nico, are my new teacher in this, I will learn from you, and you, whether you like it or not, will learn from me...

I do not claim to be what I am not, I am no scholar, I am mainly an artist and a writer who has studied a variety of subjects of intellectual nature since I was about 8 years old, or for over 27 years now...

so, let's carry on! i was depending upon some bright minds here to challenge OS 012, and I am glad that Nico finally did it!

(it is through the conflict of idea that any understanding is ever had)

So, I am going to respond to this on a new thread as to not hi-jack this one..

Thank you so much NIco, really.

the discussion and my reply is here




Discussion

 

[olde drunk]

Macho Nico & Moonie!

Gentlemen:

With many fewer words, you both prove my original point. You guys can't agree on HOW to define truth, let alone "TRUTH" itself.

true statements and truth are two very different animals.

Again, "THERE AIN'T NO TRUTH, EXCEPT THAT ALL TRUTHS ARE RELATIVE". i don't care where you go or how you choose to slice it, you will have a personal qualifier which is subjective, which leads to relative truth.

no matter what the area of examination, the incoming data will pass through your individual, personal filters (bias, belief, expectation, etc) making it subjective - relative.

it don't matta 2 me, i got mine!


love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[Moonrat]

Gentlemen:

With many fewer words, you both prove my original point. You guys can't agree on HOW to define truth, let alone "TRUTH" itself.

true statements and truth are two very different animals.

Again, "THERE AIN'T NO TRUTH, EXCEPT THAT ALL TRUTHS ARE RELATIVE". i don't care where you go or how you choose to slice it, you will have a personal qualifier which is subjective, which leads to relative truth.

no matter what the area of examination, the incoming data will pass through your individual, personal filters (bias, belief, expectation, etc) making it subjective - relative.

it don't matta 2 me, i got mine!


love&peace,
olde drunk

Olde drunk, I invite you to carry on this on the other thread. your 'exception' is they key. that is an objective truth, that all truth is relative to a point of view, yet 'truth' still remains...

we all look at the sun in the sky from different degree on earth, but the sun is still true, and we all agree that it is the sun we are looking at. we cannot separate the objective from the subjective. subjective points of view do not negate the objective, just give our own unique spin on it...

this thing that you touched upon is the main source of conflict, we confuse our unique spin with the objective truth. when we can see the distinction, there is no conflict between people, just ideas...

thanks olde drunk, I always liked your style!

 

[olde drunk]

my kind sir, we do not know the sun is in the sky!

it is highly, probable that the sun we experience is an energy - idea construct that we telepathically agree exists as physical. we AGREE the sun is there, we do not know in the absolute that it is REALLY there.

if you want to say that these agreements are objectively true for the purpose of conversation, fine. TRUTH, however can not be defined because it is 'experienced' not defined. We each learn our own individual truth through experience (relative/subjective).

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[Moonrat]

my kind sir, we do not know the sun is in the sky!

it is highly, probable that the sun we experience is an energy - idea construct that we telepathically agree exists as physical. we AGREE the sun is there, we do not know in the absolute that it is REALLY there.

if you want to say that these agreements are objectively true for the purpose of conversation, fine. TRUTH, however can not be defined because it is 'experienced' not defined. We each learn our own individual truth through experience (relative/subjective).

love&peace,
olde drunk

ahhh, I like where the conversation is going now. Yes, I agree with what you are saying, but there still is another layer or twist that you are not defining, is that we are still referring to the same 'energy' of what the sun is. It is still one point of refrence.

For example, you know, a very popular almost cliche used in hip philosophical discussions such as we all create are own reality. Well, who is to say one way or another, but if so, then there still is the reality we all create in synergy, such as the sun in the sky. All of us are receiving the same signal, energy, or what have you. even if our collective interpretation is artistic (false), we are still referring to the same thing. One cannot 'free will' away this signal, nor can they debate it away, nor can they rationalise it's non existence

There is not one human being who denies the existence of the 'sun', whether they look at it as God, Gas, Star, or illusion. It is still a functioning 'illusion' for all, and the absolute reality outside of that of our contruct is 'mystery' for all as well. Mystery is the ultimate 'truth' we all are faced with. It is true that there is mystery, and the sun is a mysterious object that we have come to understand objectivly over the centuries, but there is still much mystery about it that is left unanswered scientificaly.

Like you put it earlier, you said all truth is relative, and you ended your post with saying 'and I already got mine'.

where OS 012, or any idea or dialectic or system that is like OS 012 comes into play, is finding where there is 'our' truth as opposed to or in union with 'my' or 'your' truth.

so, our objective environment outside of us that we all participate in together, where the 'sun', whatever it turns out to be, resides. this is 'our' truth, and the quality of truth here is quite distinct from our 'inner' enviroment, which is our feelings, opinions, ideologies and the like.

so, there is only ONE environment outside of us, easy to see, this is the ONE simple objective truth. This we can say is true for certain. This is represented by the number 1 for obvious sake in OS 012. Or, like in a Math set, one is the only 'true' number.

we are always in agreement, or, to use Hegel's model, we already have an inherent synthesis of idea that we all agree to, no matter how heated our debates become. We are universally more in agreement than not. We all agree that this environment outside of us is the one where we all participate in together. anything outside of this is 'relative' and subjective, and when you can see this at play, you can see the natural synergy that exists between objective and subjective, unique quantum point of view with universal point of view. This is only an observation, outside of the world of opinion, metaphysics, or subjectivity. Yet we can only see 'it' from our unique and subjective point of view. built in paradox that the mind struggles with because it believes in a false dichotomy of true VS false. Once the mind can see that there exists another category for information that is equal to true and false, which is mystery, then the mind can expand and integrate deeper layers of information. This is only a natural process and not some technique taught in yoga schools, logic classes, or scientology ;-)


To us, our unique point of view always dominates all other points of view. But that is only to us as individuals, not for all collectivly. Therefore, all subjectivity, art, feelings are FALSE in objective environment (true in subjective enviroment, always a perfect mirrored 'reverse')

hehe, but don't trust me, I am a internet cult leader who wants to sleep with all of your women and siphon your cash! Best yet to see it for yourself for certainty and not trust my take on the matter...


Moonrat

PS, by the way, your other post title "macho nico VS 'moonie' hehe, that was funny!