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Democracy in trouble!

  1. Sep 2, 2003 #1


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    In a CNN story the CEO of Diebold-you know the company that makes electronic voting machines- told a well known politician that his company "would deliver all the votes he needs" to win the 2004 election. Now, how can that be? Perhaps, because the politico is GWB and he doesn't want to take a chance that there would be a 'fair', open and honest election where the pereson elected to the Presidency is elected by the voters of the US. THe flaws in the Diebold machines have been documented and proven.



    There are quite a few more sites where the problems built into the Diebold machines are put in the spotlight. No wonder Bush denied the UN observers and will deny them access again. Not that it matters, even Congress is rebuffed by his admin. Being denied access to documents that would more than likely provide grounds his impeachment.
    Oh, for those nostalgic days when there was at least the semblence of open, free, honest election results.
  2. jcsd
  3. Sep 2, 2003 #2
    Here we go again, with those pesky facts!! Can't you just be a real patriot, and parrot the administrations lies?
  4. Sep 2, 2003 #3


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    Oh yeah,

    Thanks for reminding me Zero. (Shhh) (be wery wery quiet- the NSA might be watching) Takes me back to a song - They'er coming to take me away... HA HAaa.
  5. Sep 2, 2003 #4


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    Staff: Mentor

    Both url's link the same conspiracy theory website and neither include the quote you posted (though I could have missed it).

    Sometimes I wonder if people in here understand the concept of "credibility."
  6. Sep 3, 2003 #5
    This isn't a conspiracy theory...exactly.
  7. Sep 3, 2003 #6


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    Staff: Mentor

    Hmm... Well, at least they picked and apt name for their website.
  8. Sep 4, 2003 #7
    Well, some conspiracies actually exist...and no, I don't think they are out to get me.

    Ok, I do think John Ashcroft is out to get me.
  9. Sep 4, 2003 #8
    No kidding. conspiracy planet dot com? come on.
    And the geocities link from that page didn't work either. Aside from the asininities here, vote rigging with electronic ballots is possible and threatening. Ballots ought to be hand written and counted by hand.
  10. Sep 4, 2003 #9


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    Re: Two URLs Ect.

    Well I beg your pardon, Russ. I didn't really want to fill up the post with a lot of site links. But for you, I'll go the extra mile.
    Many of the following links are about the succeptability of Electronic Voting machines to ... lets say tampering (a nicer word than fraud)others deal with issues that would make Americans if they had the interest the early colonist had in their Government want to revolt. All though we know - The revolution will not be TELEVISED.
    Russ I must in all fairness correct myself- the CEO was refering to Ohio, although the equipment is to be distrubuted nation wide. Well here we go...


    I am committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the President next year."
    - Wally O'Dell, CEO Diebold

    About a quarter of the way down the page – caption March 9, 2003 – pretty good article on the unreliability of the electronic voting machines.

    This site has a plethora of articles of interest.

    Obviously a Dem site, still articles worth reading.




    Some previous are repeated.

    If you are working class (blue collar) read on.


    “…If I were asked to choose one of Noam Chomsky's major contributions to the world, it would be the fact that he has unmasked the ugly, manipulative, ruthless universe that exists behind that beautiful, sunny word "freedom". He has done this rationally and empirically. The mass of evidence he has marshaled to construct his case is formidable. Terrifying, actually. The starting premise of Chomsky's method is not ideological, but it is intensely political. He embarks on his course of inquiry with an anarchist's instinctive mistrust of power. He takes us on a tour through the bog of the U.S. establishment, and leads us through the dizzying maze of corridors that connects the government, big business, and the business of managing public opinion.
    Chomsky shows us how phrases like "free speech", the "free market", and the "free world" have little, if anything, to do with freedom. He shows us that, among the myriad freedoms claimed by the U.S. government are the freedom to murder, annihilate, and dominate other people. The freedom to finance and sponsor despots and dictators across the world. The freedom to train, arm, and shelter terrorists. The freedom to topple democratically elected governments. The freedom to amass and use weapons of mass destruction — chemical, biological, and nuclear. The freedom to go to war against any country whose government it disagrees with. And, most terrible of all, the freedom to commit these crimes against humanity in the name of "justice", in the name of "righteousness", in the name of "freedom". …”

    Some tidbits.
  11. Sep 4, 2003 #10


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    Staff: Mentor

    Re: Re: Two URLs Ect.

    Lol, damn amp, thats not even CLOSE to what you posted before in quotes:
    If you do something like that in school, you'll get kicked out.
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2003
  12. Sep 4, 2003 #11


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    Staff: Mentor

    The sad thing is, you're absolutely right. There IS a legitimate issue to be discussed here, but as is often the case, the crackpots destroy any chance for reasonable discussion. Sometimes I wonder if these people even realize that they are shooting themselves in the foot.
  13. Sep 5, 2003 #12
    actually, amp is not a crackpot. The issue is deadly serious. Diebold, I just learned, has (in '99) contributed over 100K to the Bush campaign, and is run by a prominent white Republican. The source code for the voting machines was mistakenly (?) parked on a public server, and investigators have been able to open its files. The machines transmit vote counts by modem, which as we all know, are two-way devices.
    Why wouldn't a candidate who had the power to do so, rig an election in his favor? Next thing you know he'll be trying to change the 22nd Amendment.
  14. Sep 5, 2003 #13
    The way that they ought to do electronic voting is this:

    -Have multiple companies make multiple machines that record votes. The gov could set some specifications about inputs, and they could all be wired to the same buttons. Each machine would have its own

    -Have governmental inspection of source code. Any such inspectors would be composed of people selected from at least Repub and Dem parties, if not others.

    -The votes would not be transmitted over the internet. They would be stored on disks and transported by vehicle.
  15. Sep 11, 2003 #14


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    Science Advisor

    How about making a site that has you login via SS#. Then it would be relatively simple, and many more people would vote simply because they could do it in there living room, at work, etc.

    And of course websites are subject to attack. But for something so important, seems they could hire a person to monitor every possible port of entry.
  16. Sep 26, 2003 #15
    Punch cards have been shown to be more reliable than the digital stuff. A study has already shown even a completely computer illiterate person could exploit the system to have an infinite number of votes.

    Fyi, it isn't the popular vote for the president that counts, it is the state wide vote which determines the electors. This system is for stability.

    And by the way, democracy is where every individual has a vote. In Athens, a pure democracy, there were over 40,000 voters yet only 6,000 of them voted on issues. That's because they had lives to lead, jobs to do, only a few wanna be pundits can sit at town hall all day and make decisions. Now, enlarge that on a scale of tens of millions of american voters. Democracy is a sure fire way to get anarchy and tyranny going.

    What we live in is a Federalized Representative Democracy.

    This is the state wide election map for 2000:


    By no small margin did the Republicans win and Bush.

    Here's county by county:


    Notice even most of the Californian counties were won by Republicans.

    And as for voter fraud in florida, that's such a myth. Jesse Jackson took a few witnesses to court to testify and all of them said they had voted. Huh? But I do remember reading a quote from the Washington Post from a man in the bronx who said quote "I think hillary is what will save this country. I'll give her six of my votes, I only get one but I'll give her six". Hmm, fraudulent huh?

    As you can see from the map, if we got rid of electoral college we would be in trouble. Especially since the U.S. population expands fast and most voters aren't responsible anymore.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2003
  17. Sep 26, 2003 #16
    PsYcHo_FiSh, you are wrong on almost all counts...keep posting though, seeing someone be wrong all the time is rather entertaining!!
  18. Sep 26, 2003 #17
    Bwahaha, list examples and then refute them.
  19. Sep 26, 2003 #18
    Well, you think that Bush actually won the election...how much more wrong could you be?
  20. Sep 26, 2003 #19
    Since the first presidential election in the United States we've been using electoral college. That means that the party that wins a state wide election get their electoral nominees. The electors then go on to vote for who they think should be president. The Republicans won the majority of states and Bush won the majority of electoral votes. Therefore, he won. In the case of the presidential elections, popular vote practically means nothing. Gore only held the lead by a few hundered popular votes but since they don't count it shouldn't be a trifle.

    Obviously you lack a understanding of the system. But go look at those maps on my last post. Did you even read all of it?

    If we got rid of electoral college we'd be heading for anarchy even faster than we are now.

    Entropy, entropy entropee entupEe entUrpe....
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2003
  21. Sep 26, 2003 #20


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    It means the difference between one president and another.

    Which is rather significant, isn't it?
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