Derivation of Noether's theorem in Lagrangian dynamics

In summary, the conversation discusses the theorem that states that for every symmetry of the Lagrangian, there is a conserved quantity. The definition of symmetry is explained, and the process of finding the derivative of the Lagrangian with respect to a small change in coordinates is discussed. The chain rule is questioned, and the idea that time dependence does not affect the result is explained. The substitution of new coordinates is also discussed, and the use of the Euler-Lagrange equation to prove the theorem is mentioned. Additional resources are suggested for further understanding of the topic.
  • #1
physiks
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I'm going to run through a derivation I've seen and ask a few questions about some parts that I'm unsure about.

Firstly the theorem: For every symmetry of the Lagrangian there is a conserved quantity.

Assume we have a Lagrangian L invariant under the coordinate transformation qi→qi+εKi(q)
where q denotes the set of all the qi.
My book says that by a symmetry we mean that L is unchanged to first order when the coordinates are changed by some small amount. This doesn't really fit in with my idea of symmetry. I don't really understand the physical idea of the statement.

This means that dL/dε=0, but dL/dε=∑i[(∂L/∂qi)(∂qi/∂ε)+(∂L/∂qi')(∂qi'/∂ε)]. I'm using primes instead of dots for time derivatives by the way.
My first issue is that we're finding the total derivative dL/dε, so why does the chain rule not take the form ∑i[(∂L/∂qi)(dqi/dε)+(∂L/∂qi')(dqi'/dε)]?
Secondly can't L have time dependence, so what happens to the term (∂L/∂t)(∂t/∂ε)?
Is it because the term is zero because obviously changing the coordinates by some amount ε has no influence on the passage of time?


Now substitute ∂qi/∂ε=Ki and ∂qi'/∂ε=Ki'.
This is a bit confusing. Am I correct in thinking that the new qi are the old qi+εKi(q) and here we want ∂[newqi]/∂ε etc which gives the result stated above when using the relation stated. Obviously if these were total derivatives things would be messy.

Then we just use the EL equation on the first term, and note we have what looks like the derivative of a product. We can write this as d/dt(conserved quantity)=0 to prove the theorem.

Thankyou to anybody who helps :)
 
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  • #2
Hello Phys,

Since you've had no response so far, perhaps you can study some of the stuff in this link about the theorem. At least it should show the specific case of ##{dL\over d\dot q}## conservation if ##q## doesn't appear in ##L##. (Which constitutes a symmetry!). Also the case ##L## not explicitly time dependent (a symmetry under time translation) ##\Rightarrow## H conserved.

If you have a few hours to spend, Susskinds lectures on "relativity" are real jewels (google Lecture 1 | Modern Physics: Special Relativity (Stanford) link -- the real subject is field theory). He works out the ##\epsilon## stuff.
 
  • #3
This could be an useful book: "Emmy Noether's Wonderful Theorem" by Dwight E. Neuenschwander
 

What is Noether's theorem?

Noether's theorem is a fundamental theorem in physics that relates symmetries of a physical system to conserved quantities. It was first proved by mathematician Emmy Noether in 1915 and has since had a significant impact on the development of modern physics.

How is Noether's theorem derived in Lagrangian dynamics?

Noether's theorem is derived in Lagrangian dynamics through the use of variational calculus, which involves finding stationary points of a functional. This allows for the identification of conserved quantities in a physical system that possesses certain symmetries.

What are the symmetries that Noether's theorem considers?

Noether's theorem considers two types of symmetries: continuous and discrete. Continuous symmetries are those that involve infinitesimal transformations, such as translations and rotations. Discrete symmetries involve finite transformations, such as reflections or inversions.

Why is Noether's theorem important in physics?

Noether's theorem is important in physics because it allows for the identification of conserved quantities, which are crucial in understanding the behavior and evolution of physical systems. It also provides a deeper understanding of the underlying symmetries that govern the laws of physics.

What are some applications of Noether's theorem?

Noether's theorem has many applications in various branches of physics, including classical mechanics, quantum mechanics, and field theory. It has been used to explain the conservation of energy, momentum, and angular momentum in physical systems, as well as to discover new physical laws and principles.

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