Derivatives of EM Four-Potential: Euler-Lagrange to $\nabla \times B$

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Gene Naden
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Em Tensor
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the relationship between the Euler-Lagrange equations for the electromagnetic four-potential and the expressions for the magnetic field in classical electromagnetism. Participants explore the conversion of a four-vector expression involving the four-potential to a three-vector expression for the magnetic field, examining the implications of different vector notations and the associated information content.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant states that the Euler-Lagrange equations yield a specific expression involving the four-potential and seeks to relate it to the magnetic field expression, indicating uncertainty about the use of the Minkowski metric.
  • Another participant argues that it is not possible to convert the four-vector expression to a three-vector expression while retaining all information, noting that the four-vector contains components that the three-vector does not.
  • A further contribution emphasizes that the four-vector expression describes a (2,0) tensor, while the three-vector expression is fundamentally different, suggesting the use of the permutation symbol to relate the field tensor to the electric and magnetic fields.
  • Another participant asserts that conversion from Minkowski-covariant tensor notation to non-covariant notation is feasible in a fixed inertial reference frame, providing a detailed mapping of components and discussing the challenges of consistent notation between the two formalisms.
  • This participant also clarifies the relationship between the components of the Faraday tensor and the electric field in the (1+3) formalism, highlighting the complexities involved in the transition between different vector representations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the feasibility of converting the four-vector expression to a three-vector expression without loss of information. Multiple competing views on the relationship between the different vector notations and their implications for electromagnetic theory remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the challenges of maintaining consistent notation across different formalisms, particularly regarding the treatment of indices and the interpretation of components in the context of special relativity and classical electromagnetism.

Gene Naden
Messages
320
Reaction score
64
So the Euler-Lagrange equations give ##\partial _\mu ( \partial ^\mu A^\nu - \partial ^\nu A^\mu ) = J^\nu## with ##B=\nabla \times A##. I want to convert this to ##\nabla \times B - \frac{\partial E}{\partial t} = \vec{j}##. I reckon I am supposed to use the Minkowski metric to raise or lower indices, but am not sure how. I want to get from ##(\partial ^\mu A^\nu - \partial ^\nu A^\mu ) ## to ##\nabla \times A##.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Gene Naden said:
I want to get from ##(\partial ^\mu A^\nu - \partial ^\nu A^\mu )## to ##\nabla \times A##.

You can't, at least not if ##\nabla \times A## is supposed to contain all of the information; ##(\partial ^\mu A^\nu - \partial ^\nu A^\mu )## is a 4-vector expression and ##\nabla \times A## is a 3-vector expression, so the first contains information that the second does not.

Try writing out the components of ##(\partial ^\mu A^\nu - \partial ^\nu A^\mu )## explicitly, making sure to include ##\partial_0## and ##A^0##. You should find that some of the components work out to ##\nabla \times A##, where ##A## is a 3-vector; but there are also other components that mean something different. Once you figure out what those other components mean, you will have the solution to your problem.
 
PeterDonis said:
You can't, at least not if ∇×A∇×A\nabla \times A is supposed to contain all of the information; (∂μAν−∂νAμ)(∂μAν−∂νAμ)(\partial ^\mu A^\nu - \partial ^\nu A^\mu ) is a 4-vector expression and ∇×A∇×A\nabla \times A is a 3-vector expression, so the first contains information that the second does not.
Not only is it an expression using 4-vectors instead of 3-vectors. It is an expression that describes the components of a (2,0) tensor while ##\nabla \times \vec A## is a 3-vector. Yoy can use the permutation symbol to relate the field tensor to the 3-vectors ##\vec E## and ##\vec B##.
 
Of course one can convert from the Minkowski-covariant tensor notation to the non-covariant (1+3) notation (in a fixed (!) inertial reference frame). Indeed, the contravariant spatial components of the Faraday tensor is directly mapped one to one to the (1+3) Cartesian components ##\vec{B}##. You have (latin indices run over the spatial indices only, i.e., ##j \in \{1,2,3\}## etc.):
$$F^{jk}=\partial^{j} A^{k} -\partial^{k} A^j=-\partial_j A^k + \partial_k A^j=\epsilon_{ikj} (\vec{\nabla} \times \vec{A})_i.$$
The usual difficulty is to keep in mind that in the (1+3) formalism
$$\vec{\nabla} = \vec{e}_j \frac{\partial}{\partial x^j}=\vec{e}_j \partial_j=-\vec{e}_j \partial^j.$$
One should also note that the notation is not easily made consistent since in the (1+3) formalism one usually writes all indices as lower indices, because in Cartesian components you have V_j=V^j, but in SR of course V_j=-V^j.

The difficulty is natural since the components ##\vec{E}## and ##\vec{B}## are vectors in the (1+3) formalism (i.e., their components behave as vector components under rotations in the fixed inertial frame), but they are not spatial components of four-vectors but in the 4-formalism are components of the antisymmetric Faraday tensor.

For completeness, here's the relation between the temporal-spatial Faraday tensor components with the (1+3) object ##\vec{E}## (electric field):
$$F^{j0}=\partial^j A^0-\partial^0 A^j=-\partial_j A^0-\partial_0 A^j=E_j,$$
i.e.,
$$\vec{E}=-\frac{1}{c} \dot{\vec{A}}-\vec{\nabla} A^0,$$
as is well-known from the (1+3) formalism of E-dynamics.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
899
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
1K
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
4K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
1K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
5K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K