I Deriving kinematic equation for position

AI Thread Summary
The discussion revolves around deriving a kinematic equation for position when both initial and final times are treated as variables. Participants debate the validity of using the equation v = v_i + a(t_f - t_i) and its implications for integration limits. A key point raised is that the initial and final times should typically be fixed values, while the integration process requires clarity on whether acceleration is constant or variable. The consensus suggests that while manipulating these equations is mathematically valid, it can lead to confusion if the underlying physical principles are not properly understood. Ultimately, the conversation emphasizes the importance of correctly applying kinematic equations based on the conditions of acceleration.
  • #51
vanhees71 said:
I don't know, what you guys really are after here, but are you maybe just discussing the Taylor expansion of a function in a very complicated way, which leads to confusion:
$$x(t)=x(t_0) + \dot{x}(t_0) (t-t_0) + \frac{1}{2} \ddot{x}(t_0) (t-t_0)^2 + \cdots = \sum_{k=0}^{\infty} \frac{1}{k!} x^{(k)}(t_0) (t-t_0)^k.$$
Here ##x^{(k)}## means the ##k##-th derivative of the function ##x(t)##.
That's a good way to avoid doing the integration for the OP's acceleration ##a = \alpha t##:
$$x(t)=x_0 + v_0(t-t_0) + \frac 1 2 \alpha t_0(t-t_0)^2 + \frac 1 6 \alpha(t - t_0)^3$$
 
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  • #52
Hm, I get
$$v(t)=v_0+\int_{t_0}^t \mathrm{d} t' \alpha t' = v_0 + \frac{\alpha}{2} (t^2-t_0^2)$$
and then, integrating again and after some algebra,
$$x(t)=x_0 + v_0 (t-t_0) +\frac{\alpha}{6} (t-t_0)^2 (t+2 t_0) + v_0 (t-t_0)+x_0.$$
[EDIT:] Well, it's the same. So never mind ;-).
 
  • #53
vanhees71 said:
Hm, I get
$$v(t)=v_0+\int_{t_0}^t \mathrm{d} t' \alpha t' = v_0 + \frac{\alpha}{2} (t^2-t_0^2)$$
and then, integrating again and after some algebra,
$$x(t)=x_0 + v_0 (t-t_0) +\frac{\alpha}{6} (t-t_0)^2 (t+2 t_0) + v_0 (t-t_0)+x_0.$$
[EDIT:] Well, it's the same. So never mind ;-).
Both methods simplify to:
$$x(t)=x_0 + v_0(t-t_0) + \frac \alpha 6 \big [t^3 - 3t_0^2 t + 2t_0^3 \big ]$$
 
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  • #54
Steve4Physics said:
This may be an unnecessary post now, but since I’ve written it, here's an explanation of what (I think) went wrong with @annamal's logic/working.

##a = \alpha t## gives ##\frac {dv}{dt} = \alpha t##.
Integrating from ##t=t_i## to ##t=t_f## gives
##v_f - v_i = \frac{\alpha(t_f^2 – t_i^2)}{2}##

In the above equation, you can choose two quantities as (dependent and independent) variables - the other quantities are then treated as constants. You must then stick to these choices.

Assuming we are not interested in the effects of changing ##\alpha## our four options are:

a) ##t_f## and ##v_f## are variables; so we can rename them ##t## and ##v(t)##:
##v(t) - v_i = \frac{\alpha(t^2 – t_i^2)}{2}##
##v(t) = v_i + \frac{\alpha(t^2 – t_i^2)}{2}##
(This is the conventional choice.)

b) ##t_i## and ##v_i## are variables; so we can rename them ##t## and ##v(t)##:
##v_f - v(t) = \frac{\alpha(t_f^2 – t^2)}{2}##
##v(t) = v_f - \frac{\alpha(t_f^2 – t^2)}{2}##

c) ##t_f## and ##v_i## are variables; so we can rename them ##t## and ##v(t)##:
##v_f - v(t) = \frac{\alpha(t^2 – t_i^2)}{2}##
##v(t) = v_f - \frac{\alpha(t^2 – t_i^2)}{2}##

d) ##t_i## and ##v_f ## are variables; so we can rename them ##t## and ##v(t)##:
##v(t) - v_i = \frac{\alpha(t_f^2 – t^2)}{2}##
##v(t) = v_i + \frac{\alpha(t_f^2 – t^2)}{2}##

Note that choice d) is @annamal's equation ##v(t) = v_i + \frac{\alpha(t_f^2 - t^2)}{2}##.

The meaning of v(t) in the equation is the final velocity as a function of of the start time. It is not the velocity as a function of time during the motion, So it makes no sense to integrate it to find the displacement.
Thanks. That was the solution. I derivated as d) instead of b)
 
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