Conservative force in a time-dependent potential

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of conservative forces in the context of a time-dependent potential energy function. Participants explore whether it is possible for work done to depend solely on the initial and final states of a particle, regardless of the trajectory taken, when the potential is time-dependent.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asserts that a conservative force must be derivable from a potential energy function, questioning if this holds true for time-dependent potentials.
  • Another participant argues that the work-energy theorem indicates that if the potential is time-dependent, the work done cannot be independent of the trajectory, citing the relationship between the time derivative of the potential and the velocity of the particle.
  • A similar point is reiterated by another participant, emphasizing that the integrand in the work-energy theorem does not simplify to a total time derivative when the potential is explicitly time-dependent.
  • One participant proposes a conceptual shift by treating time as a fourth spatial dimension, suggesting that this could lead to a different interpretation of the work-energy theorem, but questions what might be incorrect about this approach.
  • A later reply references the need for careful development of generalized dynamics in this context, hinting at the complexities involved in relating these ideas to relativistic dynamics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the implications of time-dependent potentials on the nature of conservative forces and the work-energy theorem. No consensus is reached on the validity of treating time as a fourth spatial dimension in this framework.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexities and nuances involved in the definitions and implications of conservative forces in time-dependent scenarios, as well as the potential for different interpretations based on theoretical frameworks.

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A conservative force is one that is derivable from a potential energy function ##V##. If ##V## is time-dependent, is it still possible to have a conservative force or work done such that the work done is only dependent on the initial state ##(x_i, y_i, z_i, t_i)## and final state ##(x_f, y_f, z_f, t_f)## of the particle and independent of the trajectory taken?
 
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No, because in that case the work-energy theorem turns out to be
$$\frac{m}{2} \vec{v}(t)^2+\text{const}=\int \mathrm{d} t \vec{F}(\vec{x},t) \cdot \vec{v}=-\int \mathrm{d} t \vec{v} \cdot \vec{\nabla} U(\vec{x},t).$$
Now
$$\frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} U(\vec{x},t)=\vec{v} \cdot \vec{\nabla} U(\vec{x},t) + \partial_t U(\vec{x},t),$$
i.e., the integrand on the right-hand side of the work-energy theorem is not a total time derivative as in the case, when ##U## is not explicitly time-dependent.

This is a consequence of Noether's theorem: A system is symmetric under time translations if and only if the Lagrangian is not explicitly time dependent modulo a total time derivative of a function ##\Omega(q,t)##.
 
vanhees71 said:
No, because in that case the work-energy theorem turns out to be
$$\frac{m}{2} \vec{v}(t)^2+\text{const}=\int \mathrm{d} t \vec{F}(\vec{x},t) \cdot \vec{v}=-\int \mathrm{d} t \vec{v} \cdot \vec{\nabla} U(\vec{x},t).$$
Now
$$\frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} U(\vec{x},t)=\vec{v} \cdot \vec{\nabla} U(\vec{x},t) + \partial_t U(\vec{x},t),$$
i.e., the integrand on the right-hand side of the work-energy theorem is not a total time derivative as in the case, when ##U## is not explicitly time-dependent.

This is a consequence of Noether's theorem: A system is symmetric under time translations if and only if the Lagrangian is not explicitly time dependent modulo a total time derivative of a function ##\Omega(q,t)##.

How about we treat time as the fourth spatial dimension? Where ##\vec{v}## becomes a four-dimensional vector. Then
$$\frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} t} U(\vec{x},t)=\vec{v} \cdot \vec{\nabla} U(\vec{x},t)$$
So the integrand on the right-hand side of the work-energy theorem becomes a total time derivative.

What's wrong with this?
 
Well, that comes close to relativistic dynamics in terms of a world parameter. That generalized dynamics has to be developed carefully. For a good introduction (although unfortunately full of typos even in the math) see

Barut, Electrodynamics and classical theory of particles and fields, Dover
 

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