Deriving Probability Amplitude from Markov Density Function

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of probability amplitudes from a Markov state density function, specifically focusing on the relationship between transition probabilities and probability amplitudes in a Markov process. The scope includes theoretical exploration and mathematical reasoning related to probability density functions and their decomposition.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants describe the Markov state density function ##P((\textbf{r}_{n}| \textbf{r}_{n-1}))## as representing the probability of transitioning between states, noting that if ##\textbf{r}_{n-1} = \textbf{r}_{n}##, it describes a self-transition.
  • There is a proposal that a probability density function can be expressed as a product of probability amplitudes, specifically ##P((\textbf{r}_{n}| \textbf{r}_{n-1})) = \psi^*_{\textbf{r}_{n}} \cdot \psi_{\textbf{r}_{n-1}}##.
  • One participant questions the clarity of the claim regarding the non-commutative nature of the probabilities, suggesting that ##P( \textbf{r}_{n} = b | \textbf{r}_{n-1} = a)## and ##P( \textbf{r}_{n} = a | \textbf{r}_{n-1} = b)## may differ.
  • Another participant clarifies that if ##\textbf{r}_{n}## and ##\textbf{r}_{n-1}## are vectors, then ##P((\textbf{r}_{n}| \textbf{r}_{n-1}))## could represent a transition probability tensor.
  • There is a correction regarding notation, with a participant suggesting that the expression should be written as ##P((\textbf{r}_{n}| \textbf{r}_{n-1})) = \psi^*_{\textbf{r}_{n}} \otimes \psi_{\textbf{r}_{n-1}}##, indicating a non-commutative relationship when dealing with vector amplitudes.
  • Further reflection leads to a suggestion that ##\psi_{\textbf{r}_{n}}## could be defined as the square root of the probability density function, ##\psi_{\textbf{r}_{n}} \doteq \sqrt{P((\textbf{r}_{n}| \textbf{r}_{n-1})) }##.
  • A participant raises a question about whether the derivation is rooted in physics or is purely mathematical, and inquires about the nature of the vectors ##\psi_3## and ##\psi^*_3## in the context of a transition matrix for a Markov process.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of the probability amplitudes and their relationship to the Markov process. There is no consensus on the derivation or the clarity of the claims made regarding the mathematical expressions involved.

Contextual Notes

Participants note potential notational errors and the need for clarification regarding the nature of the vectors involved in the probability amplitudes. The discussion highlights the complexity of transitioning from probability density functions to amplitude representations without resolving the underlying mathematical assumptions.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying Markov processes, probability theory, and quantum mechanics, particularly in the context of probability amplitudes and their applications in theoretical frameworks.

redtree
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1. Given a Markov state density function:
## P((\textbf{r}_{n}| \textbf{r}_{n-1})) ##

##P## describes the probability of transitioning from a state at ## \textbf{r}_{n-1}## to a state at ##\textbf{r}_{n} ##. If ## \textbf{r}_{n-1} = \textbf{r}_{n}##, then ##P## describes the probability of the state at ##\textbf{r}_{n}## transitioning to itself.

2. A probability density function can be decomposed into probability amplitudes, where the probability density function ##P## is the product of a probability amplitude ##\psi_{\textbf{r}_{n-1}} ## and the complex modulus of second probability amplitude ##\psi^*_{\textbf{r}_{n}} ## where:
## P((\textbf{r}_{n}| \textbf{r}_{n-1})) = \psi^*_{\textbf{r}_{n}} \cdot \psi_{\textbf{r}_{n-1}} ##

Again, if ## \textbf{r}_{n-1} = \textbf{r}_{n}##, then:
## P((\textbf{r}_{n}| \textbf{r}_{n-1})) = \psi^*_{\textbf{r}_{n}} \cdot \psi_{\textbf{r}_{n}} = |\psi_{\textbf{r}_{n}}|^2##

-----------------

Unfortunately, I have not been able to find a derivation for #2. Does anyone know where I can find such a derivation?
 
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redtree said:
1. Given a Markov state density function:
## P((\textbf{r}_{n}| \textbf{r}_{n-1})) ##

##P## describes the probability of transitioning from a state at ## \textbf{r}_{n-1}## to a state at ##\textbf{r}_{n} ##. If ## \textbf{r}_{n-1} = \textbf{r}_{n}##, then ##P## describes the probability of the state at ##\textbf{r}_{n}## transitioning to itself.

According to that notation, to speak ##P((\textbf{r}_{n}| \textbf{r}_{n-1}))## as a specific number, we must specify a value for each of ##\textbf{r}_{n}## and ##\textbf{r}_{n-1}##. So the notation ##P( \textbf{r}_{n} = b | \textbf{r}_{n-1} = a)## represents a specific numerical value.

2. A probability density function can be decomposed into probability amplitudes, where the probability density function ##P## is the product of a probability amplitude ##\psi_{\textbf{r}_{n-1}} ## and the complex modulus of second probability amplitude ##\psi^*_{\textbf{r}_{n}} ## where:
## P((\textbf{r}_{n}| \textbf{r}_{n-1})) = \psi^*_{\textbf{r}_{n}} \cdot \psi_{\textbf{r}_{n-1}} ##

It isn't clear what is being claimed. In a Markov process, the values of ##P( \textbf{r}_{n} = b | \textbf{r}_{n-1} = a)## and ##P( \textbf{r}_{n} = a | \textbf{r}_{n-1} = b) ## may be different. What non-commutative arithmetic does the claim use to allow such a situation to happen?
 
1.
Stephen Tashi said:
According to that notation, to speak ##P((\textbf{r}_{n}| \textbf{r}_{n-1}))## as a specific number, we must specify a value for each of ##\textbf{r}_{n}## and ##\textbf{r}_{n-1}##. So the notation ##P( \textbf{r}_{n} = b | \textbf{r}_{n-1} = a) ## represents a specific numerical value.

You are correct if ##\textbf{r}_{n}## and ##\textbf{r}_{n-1}## represent scalars (##a## and ##b##), such that ##P( \textbf{r}_{n} = b | \textbf{r}_{n-1} = a) = c##, where ##c## is also a scalar. However, if ##\textbf{r}_{n}## and ##\textbf{r}_{n-1}## are vectors, then ##P((\textbf{r}_{n}| \textbf{r}_{n-1}))## represents a transition probability tensor (transformation matrix). In my understanding, in both cases, ##P## represents a probability density for the transformation.

2.
Stephen Tashi said:
It isn't clear what is being claimed. In a Markov process, the values of ##P( \textbf{r}_{n} = b | \textbf{r}_{n-1} = a)## and ##P( \textbf{r}_{n} = a | \textbf{r}_{n-1} = b)## may be different. What non-commutative arithmetic does the claim use to allow such a situation to happen?

You are correct. I made a notational error. I should have written the following:
##P((\textbf{r}_{n}| \textbf{r}_{n-1})) = \psi^*_{\textbf{r}_{n}} \otimes \psi_{\textbf{r}_{n-1}}##

In this form, assuming ## \psi^*_{\textbf{r}_{n}}## and ## \psi_{\textbf{r}_{n-1}}## are vectors, the expression does not commute.

Such that, if ##\textbf{r}_{n-1} = \textbf{r}_{n}##, then:
##P((\textbf{r}_{n}| \textbf{r}_{n})) = \psi^*_{\textbf{r}_{n}} \otimes \psi_{\textbf{r}_{n}} = |\psi_{\textbf{r}_{n}}|^2##

-----------------------------

And my question remains: Does anyone know where I can find such a derivation for the following:
##P((\textbf{r}_{n}| \textbf{r}_{n-1})) = \psi^*_{\textbf{r}_{n}} \otimes \psi_{\textbf{r}_{n-1}}##

Or, am I overthinking the problem, and the answer is simply in the definition of ## \psi##?
 
Last edited:
Upon further reflection, it seems that the equation should read as follows:
## \psi_{\textbf{r}_{n}} \doteq \sqrt{P((\textbf{r}_{n}| \textbf{r}_{n-1})) }##
 
Does the claim comes from derivation that involves physics or is it suppose to be purely a mathematical result?

Assume we have the transition matrix ##M## of a Markov process with a 10 states. What does ##\psi_3## denote? Is it a vector with 10 components, each of which is a complex number?

Is ##\psi^*_3## a vector whose components are the complex conjugates of the components of ##\psi_3## ?
 

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