Describe disorder in terms of entropy

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    Disorder Entropy Terms
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of entropy and its relationship to disorder, particularly in the context of molecular motion and kinetic energy. Participants explore the definitions and interpretations of entropy, questioning the common association of entropy with disorder.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that increasing entropy may relate to a greater range of velocities among particles, indicating larger differences between low and high kinetic energy particles.
  • Another participant emphasizes the importance of identifying the source of information when discussing scientific definitions, suggesting that understanding the context can aid in clarifying concepts.
  • A participant argues that the term "disorder" is not part of the scientific definition of entropy and implies that simplified explanations in textbooks may lead to misunderstandings.
  • There is a suggestion to focus on the definition of entropy in terms of the number of states rather than the concept of disorder.
  • A later reply provides a link to an article that may offer further insights into the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the appropriateness of using "disorder" to describe entropy, with some arguing against it while others maintain that it is a common interpretation. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best way to conceptualize entropy.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the potential limitations of simplified explanations found in textbooks and the necessity of understanding the specific definitions used in scientific contexts. There is an acknowledgment of the open nature of scientific discourse, which complicates the attribution of definitions.

Jewish_Vulcan
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when they mean disorder do they mean the range of velocities of the particles increasing as entropy increases? so there are larger differences between the low KE particles and the high KE particles?
 
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Jewish_Vulcan said:
when they mean disorder do they mean the range of velocities of the particles increasing as entropy increases? so there are larger differences between the low KE particles and the high KE particles?

Who is "they"? We can't tell you what someone means if we don't know who you're asking about.

If you're serious about understanding entropy, your first step should be to forget everything you've heard about "disorder" and start in on the real definition of entropy in terms of number of states.
 
Nugatory said:
Who is "they"? We can't tell you what someone means if we don't know who you're asking about.

If you're serious about understanding entropy, your first step should be to forget everything you've heard about "disorder" and start in on the real definition of entropy in terms of number of states.
when I reffered to they I was talking about the people in science who give the definitions and describe scientific concepts, it is a neglectible fact for answering my question.
 
Jewish_Vulcan said:
when I reffered to they I was talking about the people in science who give the definitions and describe scientific concepts, it is a neglectible fact for answering my question.

It may seem trivial, but it is often the case that telling us the source of your information can help us explain something to you. From your original question we don't know if you're reading a textbook, a wiki article, or something else.
 
Drakkith said:
It may seem trivial, but it is often the case that telling us the source of your information can help us explain something to you. From your original question we don't know if you're reading a textbook, a wiki article, or something else.
well if it helps any I get my physics information from a textbook.
 
Jewish_Vulcan said:
well if it helps any I get my physics information from a textbook.

What did that textbook say about entropy, disorder, and their connection to molecular motion? If we don't know what it is was trying to say, we cannot explain it to you. (This is one of the reasons that Physics Forums has a rule requiring that you provide sources)

I could guess that your textbook just said something about entropy representing disorder and left it at that. If that's your starting point, then we've already answered your question back in post #2 of this thread: Forget everything you've heard about "disorder" and start in on the real definition of entropy in terms of number of states. But now I'm just guessing what you're looking for, and if I guessed wrong that answer won't be helpful.
 
Jewish_Vulcan said:
when I reffered to they I was talking about the people in science who give the definitions and describe scientific concepts
There is no single authority doing this, science is a much more open process.
"disorder" is not used in the scientific definition of entropy. You probably found some book that tries to explain physics to non-physicists, which means the science got simplified a lot - and we have no idea how exactly this was done in the book you read.
it is a neglectible fact for answering my question.
It is absolutely necessary.
 

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