Determination of Lorentz transform from euclid geometry

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the determination of the Lorentz transformation using concepts from Euclidean geometry. Participants explore the implications of light travel time on the observation of moving bodies, particularly focusing on how to visualize and calculate the positions of points on a moving object as perceived by an observer.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a scenario involving a moving body and attempts to calculate the position of point B based on the observation of point A, considering the time of flight of light.
  • Another participant emphasizes that Lorentz transformations account for calculated positions and times after considering light travel time, rather than direct observations.
  • Some participants argue that understanding the physics behind Lorentz transformations is necessary, suggesting that geometry alone is insufficient.
  • There is a mention of Lorentz transformations as rotations in hyperbolic 4-space of Minkowski, with some participants questioning the relevance of this characterization.
  • One participant expresses skepticism about deriving the interval equation from Euclidean geometry, pointing out the need for hyperbolic geometry.
  • A later reply introduces an equation related to the visibility of a moving point, suggesting a connection to the Lorentz transformation through its hyperbolic nature.
  • Another participant refers to the Terrill effect, which describes how objects appear elongated or contracted based on their motion relative to an observer.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the sufficiency of geometric reasoning alone for understanding Lorentz transformations. Some agree on the need for additional physics concepts, while others maintain that geometry can provide insights. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best approach to derive and understand the Lorentz transformation.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of accounting for light travel time and the potential need for knowledge of length contraction in determining observed positions. There are references to mathematical properties of transformations and their implications for physical observations, but no consensus is reached on the methodology or conclusions.

  • #31
atto said:
I have seen such rotated images, but I don't know how these was calculated, because it's rather impossible.
If you don't know then isn't it a little premature to claim the impossibility? After all, it isn't a violation of the laws of physics, just a strange optical phenomenon in the midst of many strange phenomena.
 
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  • #32
DaleSpam said:
If you don't know then isn't it a little premature to claim the impossibility? After all, it isn't a violation of the laws of physics, just a strange optical phenomenon in the midst of many strange phenomena.

I can quickly check it out.
Sufficient to calculate the eight moving points - two squares one after another.

The equation is the same, but with two distances: one h, and a second h+a.

http://www.math.ubc.ca/~cass/courses/m309-01a/cook/terrell1.html

It looks incorrectly - rather impossible.

There unnecessarily complicate the matter by analyzing the moving observer.
It is much easier to calculate for the stationary one.

Then would be no problem with an aberration of light,
which there is probably not considered at all, and perhaps for this reason such unrealistic results.
 
Last edited:

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