News Did I Vote for GWB for the Right Reasons?

[Townsend]

I think it is very important that as a society we agree that understanding is not forgiveness! And this is where I think a lot of you and I differ on opinions.

Just to be clear:

Innate causation is not nor will it ever be a worthy excuse for someone’s actions!

I do believe in having a social safety net to help people when they are down but that is not the same as supporting a family of three for 15 or more years. For that there is no excuse. I believe in helping people with education but not the same way you do. I believe in helping people deal with their problems in life but I do not believe giving them a free ride as I think think this is nothing more than enabling them to continue antisocial behavior.

People need to take responsibility for there actions and the people who are responsible should not be punished for being responsible. Taxing people for being successful is socialism and unfair and detrimental to the well being of society overall. That is why I reject Kerry...and no I do not like Bush but there is no way the Libertarian party could win so what choices do I have? Neither the democrats nor the republicans stand for what I believe in as I believe in more personal freedoms and support the idea of letting gay people have the same rights as heterosexual people. But voting for Kerry would not have changed society’s perception on this, but it would have increased unfair taxes that would have gone to social projects that would have failed.

Look, if you want to support socialism fine, I can understand and respect that. So why is it that you people cannot understand and accept who I support or who someone else supports? I think it is funny that liberals want to FORCE their belief system down people’s throats. I will tell you now, the more you push the harder you will be pushed back! And I can tell you also that I do not believe in giving my opponents a fair fight so if you believe that it’s just a pure numbers game that will eventually turn around you will lose every time. As minority groups gain wealth they will want to protect it and begin to see that the socialist perspective is all about the redistribution of wealth from who ever the haves are, to who ever the have nots are that that time.


Regards

 

[franznietzsche]

Stuff only an Ignorant, stupid, fearful, Bush supporter who doesn't know what is good for himself would say

I agree with you completely.


Edit: Just usually in a far more caustic, inflammatory manner. But I agree nonetheless.

 

[Smurf]

what do you mean by Innate causation and "I think it is very important that as a society we agree that understanding is not forgiveness!"?

I don't fully understand what your trying to say. (all i got was a rant against socialism)

 

[Townsend]

what do you mean by Innate causation and "I think it is very important that as a society we agree that understanding is not forgiveness!"?

I don't fully understand what your trying to say. (all i got was a rant against socialism)

For a long time people used the SSSM, which says culture, is the reason why people are the way they are instead of people having been born with a certain amount of built in behavioral structure. Now more and more the idea of evolutionary psychology is gaining ground and people are using it incorrectly as a defense for some people’s antisocial behavior. While I agree with evolutionary psychology I do not believe that if we find a reason as to why some people are more likely to be lazy or to kill or whatever the bad behavior is, that it is an excuse for their behavior. Our moral philosophy may need to be revised a bit but in any case I reject the notion that people do not have free will and our actions are based on things we cannot control. In other words understanding peoples behavior is not to forgive their behavior.

The idea that we are all responsible for our actions does not mean that mentally ill people should be rejected by society. I believe in giving people help when they need it but not to the extent that people no longer have to take any personal responsibility for their actions. Socialism is just that, as long as people know they will be taken care of by the government they do not have to concern themselves with their behavior. As long as that teenager is not held responsible why should he or she care about birth control? And now she is a single mother that cannot make it on her own and does not even have to worry about a job because welfare encourages people to continue to be uneducated and poor.

Mean while it is getting harder and harder for me to build my wealth with more and more taxes hitting me where it hurts the most. Why am I being punished by the government for trying to be socially responsible for myself instead of reliant of the government for my needs?

Do you understand that?

 

[graphic7]

For a long time people used the SSSM, which says culture, is the reason why people are the way they are instead of people having been born with a certain amount of built in behavioral structure. Now more and more the idea of evolutionary psychology is gaining ground and people are using it incorrectly as a defense for some people’s antisocial behavior. While I agree with evolutionary psychology I do not believe that if we find a reason as to why some people are more likely to be lazy or to kill or whatever the bad behavior is, that it is an excuse for their behavior. Our moral philosophy may need to be revised a bit but in any case I reject the notion that people do not have free will and our actions are based on things we cannot control. In other words understanding peoples behavior is not to forgive their behavior.

The idea that we are all responsible for our actions does not mean that mentally ill people should be rejected by society. I believe in giving people help when they need it but not to the extent that people no longer have to take any personal responsibility for their actions. Socialism is just that, as long as people know they will be taken care of by the government they do not have to concern themselves with their behavior. As long as that teenager is not held responsible why should he or she care about birth control? And now she is a single mother that cannot make it on her own and does not even have to worry about a job because welfare encourages people to continue to be uneducated and poor.

Mean while it is getting harder and harder for me to build my wealth with more and more taxes hitting me where it hurts the most. Why am I being punished by the government for trying to be socially responsible for myself instead of reliant of the government for my needs?

Do you understand that?

Are you saying we, as a people, aren't ready for socialism, yet? If so, I can understand your reasoning, however, it's not something that we shouldn't strive for in our future.

 

[Lyuokdea]

I agree with your policy views, but think you should strongly consider voting for the libertarian party in 2008.

First, the libertarian party doesn't get votes because they can't win, they can't win because nobody thinks they can win, according to my best guess, if everybody voted for the ideology closest to theirs, with no regards to who has the best chance of winning, at least 15% of the country would vote libertarian, while perhaps this is not enough to win an election, it is enough to give the party substantial sway in the goings on of the government as a whole, as Republicans and democrats play the insane election game and try to swing towards Libertarian views in order to pick up votes from what would become a large 3rd party voting block. Furthermore, at least voting for what you believe in, you can have a free conscience that is not bothered by having had voted for the lesser of two evils.

Secondly, I'm sorry to say, but the republican party no longer stands for the ideals you represent. The party has been captured by social conservatives such as Rove, Falwell, and Bush. Think of the major policy measures which the republican party is pushing, very few of them are economic, and besides the tax cuts, which I'll get to in a moment, the few economic issues that were passed, Medicare and the largest federal budget deficit in history, do not reflect your views either. The major republican measures being pushed are instead, gay marriage bans, restrictions on abortion, invasions of non-hostile nations, tougher restrictions on drug policy, further measures to enforce the patriot act, etc. None of which support the libertarian framework either.

The tax cuts passed by the president are another sham of true libertarian policy. It is not that I don't believe that the rich should pay taxes equal to the poor (in terms of percentage), it's the fact that I do and they don't. Currently, republican tax code usually results in the rich paying a tax percentage less than the poorest of the poor, (Teresa Kerry, for instance, only payed 8% of her income to taxes last year) Tax code has become a monster only those with enough money to higher multiple tax lawyers can overcome. However those who have lawyers do not have to pay a dollar in taxes if they don't want. 25000 pages of tax code exist, and most of those are dedicated to write-offs. Envision 25000 pages of tax code, the whole system is that insane. As a staunch believer in flat taxes, the entire code could easily be cut down to 20 or so. (I believe until the first income tax was proposed, in the late 19th century/ early 20th century, tax code hovered under 10 pages total.) In effect Republicans no longer believe in capitalism, it is too threatening to the establishment. In true capitalism the poor can become rich quickly, and the rich can become poor quickly. Thus the republicans have devised the perfect system for keeping the rich rich and the poor poor, designing a tax code with huge percentage taxes for anybody becomming rich, thus preventing anybody from obtaining that level, but also allowing so many writeoffs that those who already have attained the highest levels can stay by using capital to prevent them from paying taxes.

Sadly, the republican party no longer fits either your social or economic beliefs, the democratic party may currently be worse economically now, but the republicans are never far behind in chasing them toward socialist party, just with a pro-rich twist. The libertarian party is now the only standing bastion of freedom, economic or social.

~Lyuokdea

 

[Townsend]

Are you saying we, as a people, aren't ready for socialism, yet? If so, I can understand your reasoning, however, it's not something that we shouldn't strive for in our future.

I agree that it would be nice if socialism worked as well as people would like but I do not think it will ever work. There is no incentive for me to go to work if I can get things from the government for free. Espically if I get taxed more for every extra dollar I earn. I believe people will naturally take the easy road in life and therefore instead of working to build their wealth they get it all for free. Eventually this type of system will fail and the average person will be worse off. The US GDP is a reflection of its capitalist market system. The people own the factors of production and the consumer is the one who gets to decide what and how much should be produced. The end result of this system is the wealth of the average person increases and eventually even the poorest of society are not so bad off. History has shown that governments cannot manage people’s money for them as well as they can for themselves. That is why I do not think socialism will ever work.

Regards

 

[Gokul43201]

Tax code has become a monster only those with enough money to higher multiple tax lawyers can overcome. However those who have lawyers do not have to pay a dollar in taxes if they don't want. 25000 pages of tax code exist, and most of those are dedicated to write-offs. Envision 25000 pages of tax code, the whole system is that insane. As a staunch believer in flat taxes, the entire code could easily be cut down to 20 or so. (I believe until the first income tax was proposed, in the late 19th century/ early 20th century, tax code hovered under 10 pages total.) In effect Republicans no longer believe in capitalism, it is too threatening to the establishment.

~Lyuokdea

Clearly, Bush is pushing for a flat tax. So, I disagree with your characterization of the GOP in this context.

 

[Townsend]

I agree with your policy views, but think you should strongly consider voting for the libertarian party in 2008.


~Lyuokdea

After reading your post I will in fact vote libertarian in 08. Thanks for that post.

 

[Lyuokdea]

how many thousands of loopholes and tax evasion mechanisms will this "flat tax" have? My guess it will add pages to tax code, not get rid of them.

~Lyuokdea

 

[graphic7]

I agree that it would be nice if socialism worked as well as people would like but I do not think it will ever work. There is no incentive for me to go to work if I can get things from the government for free. Espically if I get taxed more for every extra dollar I earn. I believe people will naturally take the easy road in life and therefore instead of working to build their wealth they get it all for free. Eventually this type of system will fail and the average person will be worse off. The US GDP is a reflection of its capitalist market system. The people own the factors of production and the consumer is the one who gets to decide what and how much should be produced. The end result of this system is the wealth of the average person increases and eventually even the poorest of society are not so bad off. History has shown that governments cannot manage people’s money for them as well as they can for themselves. That is why I do not think socialism will ever work.

Regards

I agree with most of this, but I don't think you could really say that socialism will 'never' work. That attitude insures that socialism will never be as successful nor as fair as you and I would like it. Indeed, I can agree that we as a people are not ready for a socialist form of government - too many people would take advantage of it. A question we should be comtemplating is why would those people take advantage of it. Most of the answers you could list are somehow related to poverty in some way, and not all of those cases you could list are specifically that person's fault.

 

[Lyuokdea]

I agree with most of this, but I don't think you could really say that socialism will 'never' work. That attitude insures that socialism will never be as successful nor as fair as you and I would like it. Indeed, I can agree that we as a people are not ready for a socialist form of government - too many people would take advantage of it. A question we should be comtemplating is why would those people take advantage of it. Most of the answers you could list are somehow related to poverty in some way, and not all of those cases you could list are specifically that person's fault.

People will inherently take advantage of socialism regardless of the context becuase it becomes in people's best interest to take advantage of the system. Furthermore the system does not discourage this behavior but instead breads it by blurring the line between "right" and "need" In a socialist society, "needs" come first, the problem though, is that everybody define "needs" differently. Joe "needs" to eat, but Pam "needs" an airplane. Although the situation presented is outlandish, the point exists that there is no objective criteria for proving that Joe's "needs" should come before Pam's. And subsequently, who's "needs" are weighed first becomes a matter of how much pull you have with the person who dispenses aid to fulfill people's needs. Getting somewhere in life becomes dependant on who you know, not what you know or what you have. Unjust deals become a way of life, as people with the ability to fulfill needs trade with each other because it supports the mutual benefit of both. And because their can be no objective quantitization of needs, there can be no claim that the traders have done anything wrong. Consequently, socialism will always lead trading between those who have, and between those who have "pull" the poor will be kept down, forced to give what little they have to the system in hope that the voluntary benevolence of the leaders at that time will include them.

~Lyuokdea

~Lyuokdea

 

[GENIERE]

Socialism does not work, cannot work, will never work. The EU nations have all adopted socialism to some degree or other and for several generations had good results. All now have major to minor problems in sustaining the financial burden passed down to the present work force. A few must support the many. The few are becoming fewer, the many slowly growing. The French have no less than 20 percent of their work force employed by the government. Four Frenchmen must support each government worker. The average EU worker earns 15% less than the average American worker but apparently works harder as the productivity per hour is greater. The horrific unemployment rates are likely higher in EU countries than their governments admit to as some hide the real figures via a variety of ploys.

One way to fight terrorism is to follow the money. One way to determine the economic strength of a nation is to follow the money. 40% of the US debt is financed by foreign money because that is the safe investment, the sure growth investment, the smart investment.

Governments cannot create wealth, not now, not later, not ever. If you’re contemplating a government-supported retirement where you lie on a beach sifting sand you better buy a metal detector and start sifting now. If you hate your great-great-grand daughter, you will love socialism.

...

 

[username]

does it really make a difference who you vote for, will the majority of the planet care who you vote for, will it make any difference to them or you?

50/50 who cares (ignoring the physcological factor)

 

[Smurf]

Socialism does not say that whatever you do you will not be held responsible for your actions, it does not say you can live your life as a bum and live comfortably by support of the government. There are many drug addicts in my town who are living on the street because the government refuses to support people who won't do anything. They don't even get full medical treatment if they need it. They will be supported by the Government under certain conditions and if they go through rehab but not otherwise. Unemployed people will not be supported by the government if they can't get jobs (They are now, but we're going through a small recession and its hard to get a job - this will change soon).

I can't speak for Europe but I will never believe that the Government should not be held responsible for the welfare of the people under its laws, and I am not ready to believe that Socialism cannot work, it's working in many places in many ways and not working in others, what we need is to find a proper way to implement it, not abandon it completely.

 

[member 5645]

does it really make a difference who you vote for, will the majority of the planet care who you vote for, will it make any difference to them or you?

50/50 who cares (ignoring the physcological factor)

A 5 page thread,now locked, of enraged tempers seems to make me believe others care.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=51408

 

[Dayle Record]

Why is it that I think that most of Scandanavia is Socialist?

They have the lowest infant mortality rates in the world.

They have a low birth rate, so people aren't just laying back and expecting to get paid for having babies. If the country wants more babies, they will make it financially favorable to do so.

I think Dads get maternity leave too, in Scandanavia.

They have universal health care.
They are the healthiest people in the world.
They are productive, and happy.
They are peaceable, and have low crime rates.
They author great technology, and educate their young.

I think that socialism, is alive and well to some extent in all of the European Countries.

It seems to work well, I might add.

We forget that we have to find a way to come to stasis, economically, and population wise. If we can get the whole world to a state of good social health, then there would be no push at our borders from anywhere, everyone would be happy to stay at home, and we would have to figure out how to live, rather than continuously grow.

I didn't vote for George Bush, I am not into the Dogma, eat Dogma thing.

 

[GENIERE]

…There are many drug addicts in my town who are living on the street because the government refuses to support people who won't do anything. They don't even get full medical treatment if they need it. They will be supported by the Government under certain conditions and if they go through rehab but not otherwise…

Conservative Americans insure that all citizens can get medical treatment without restrictions

…Unemployed people will not be supported by the government if they can't get jobs...

Conservative Americans insure each citizen is provided a security blanket with some restrictions.

...(They are now, but we're going through a small recession and its hard to get a job - this will change soon)...

Not with your present system!

...I can't speak for Europe but I will never believe that the Government should not be held responsible for the welfare of the people under its laws...

Conservative Americans most definitely hold the government accountable for the welfare of the people. That is it’s most important function. That is what our soldiers are dying for.

…it's working in many places in many ways and not working in others, what we need is to find a proper way to implement it, not abandon it completely...

Where?


...

 

[tumor]

Townsend and Franz: if you two love Bush so much why don't you fight for "freedom and democracy" in Iraq? loudmouths!

 

[Townsend]

Townsend and Franz: if you two love Bush so much why don't you fight for "freedom and democracy" in Iraq? loudmouths!

What makes you think I have not?

I have spent eight and a half years in the US Navy. I have friends from all over the world and I have been around the world twice. I have been to Bahrain, Dubai, Kuwait and a host of other places. I personally believe that the US should have ousted Saddam during operation Desert Fox in which I was there on board the USS Carl Vinson with CVW 11. Three of my good friends are Marines over there right now!

I just recently successfully completed my obligations with the Navy and I want to get a degree and then return to Active Duty as an officer. I felt I would better serve my country this way and that is the only reason I am now back home in South Dakota attending SDSU pursuing a degree in mathematics.

Do not question my patriotism you will lose miserably!

 

[GENIERE]

Townsend - We all owe you! Thanks!

 

[GENIERE]

...It seems to work well, I might add...QUOTE]

Open your eyes. Its dying a slow death. Note the changes in Sweden during the 1990's to avert the inevetable, industry in Germany threatening to leave...

 

[Dissident Dan]

Wow, I didn't realize that this election was about socialism vs. free market. Thanks for clearing that up and letting me know that nobody here is a brainwashed idealogue who has no concept of reality.

 

[Gokul43201]

What makes you think I have not?

I have spent eight and a half years in the US Navy. I have friends from all over the world and I have been around the world twice. I have been to Bahrain, Dubai, Kuwait and a host of other places. I personally believe that the US should have ousted Saddam during operation Desert Fox in which I was there on board the USS Carl Vinson with CVW 11. Three of my good friends are Marines over there right now!

I just recently successfully completed my obligations with the Navy and I want to get a degree and then return to Active Duty as an officer. I felt I would better serve my country this way and that is the only reason I am now back home in South Dakota attending SDSU pursuing a degree in mathematics.

Do not question my patriotism you will lose miserably!

Bravo !

why don't you fight for "freedom and democracy" in Iraq? loudmouths!

Some folks really ought to just learn to talk just a little sense or shut it.

 

[franznietzsche]

Townsend and Franz: if you two love Bush so much why don't you fight for "freedom and democracy" in Iraq? loudmouths!

I don't love Bush. I hate Kerry.

 

[tumor]

...It seems to work well, I might add...QUOTE]

, industry in Germany threatening to leave...

Some companies in Germany(mostly owned by US/UK) might have done that ,but most companies (99%) have loyalty to their nation and peoples.
Did you check what is going on in your own backyard? GM or Ford hardly can make decent car all other industries left USA long time ago or are on their way to China.

 

[Townsend]

Yeah right! . And I went to the moon with N.Armstrong!

Tell me what reasonable method of proof you want and you will get it. I can start with a few but you can let me know if its not enough and then propose what more you want.

The picture is from boot camp. I was 19 then and the other one is my going away NAM. If you are not convinced just let me know I can do this all night long.

 

[GENIERE]

Some companies in Germany(mostly owned by US/UK) might have done that ,but most companies (99%) have loyalty to their nation and peoples...

tumor you can live in your fictional world, but I prefer reality.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20031010/08/
“Like elsewhere in Europe, many of Germany's brightest science graduates in all disciplines seek their fortunes abroad… Every seventh person with a doctorate in science leaves Germany for the United States. And three of the four Germans who have won a Nobel Prize are currently working in the United States, noted Markus Albers in Die Welt am Sonntag.”

http://www.no-euro.com/mediacentre/fps/030527%20Foreign%20Press.pdf
A quarter of German firms planning to move from Germany
The DIHK business association has run a poll of 10,000 businesses in Germany and found that a quarter of them are planning to leave Germany in the next 3 years…

...

 

[Townsend]

I don't love Bush. I hate Kerry.

I do not hate either Kerry or Bush nor do I love Bush...I just would rather have Bush as my president than Kerry.

 

[Townsend]

This probably belongs in another thread in another forum but since some people want to question my service I think now is a good time to go through the old photo album. This is going to be great...

I am scanning pictures right now...

 

[GENIERE]

Got any in diapers, my wife loves baby pictures?

 

[tumor]

I agree some scientists leave western Europe and go to the US, but also young and bright people leave Eastern Europe and first they settle in Germany or France and work there .
New European research facilities like CERN are second to none and American scientists leave America for Europe.
Also White House ban on stem cell research in the USA will cause exodus of countless scientists and capital from America.

 

[Townsend]

Got any in diapers, my wife loves baby pictures?

haha...I do not think so but

Here are three more

1 is of me on wog day blowing out a padeye.

2 is me in the mess decks with my friends on wog day.

3 is of my in Hong Kong. I took a subway to see the Tian Tan Buddha. I am still amazed looking back at all the great places I have had to opportunity to goto.

Anyways...I think this will do for now unless anyone has any special request for me. And this does not include requesting to see me in diapers...

Regards

 

[tumor]

TOWNSEND? I can't open your attachments ,are they clasiffied? or what?

 

[Townsend]

TOWNSEND? I can't open your attachments ,are they clasiffied? or what?

I do not know why they are not working for you? it says pending approval so maybe the moderators need to let them through before they will work...

 

[Townsend]

Try this link...
http://onfinite.com/libraries/126618/4ee.jpg

or this one

http://onfinite.com/libraries/126621/4ee.jpg

 

[Dayle Record]

There is a fallacy in thinking that because you work for the government, or the defense industry, you are a patriot, or you have more value to society, or you hold a higher worth. I live in a state where a lot of people graduate from high school and go to work next door on the base. They need jobs. It is a job. The job doesn't pay very well, at the lower grades, and included in the payment, is the mythology of hyper-patriotism. There is no bigger socialist system in the world, than the US Military, and Government. While you strike out at socialistic practices, you luxuriate in the fruit of them. Your education, medical, and retirement are all paid for courtesy of the American People, the American people are great employers, aren't they?

The people whose lives are on the line have my highest regard. To me, there is no easy collateral loss. We are not a Democracy, but I was raised to believe in the principles of Democracy, being that all of us are born equal, and have an equal stake in the building and perpetuation of our nation.

 

[Townsend]

There is a fallacy in thinking that because you work for the government, or the defense industry, you are a patriot, or you have more value to society, or you hold a higher worth. I live in a state where a lot of people graduate from high school and go to work next door on the base. They need jobs. It is a job. The job doesn't pay very well, at the lower grades, and included in the payment, is the mythology of hyper-patriotism. There is no bigger socialist system in the world, than the US Military, and Government. While you strike out at socialistic practices, you luxuriate in the fruit of them. Your education, medical, and retirement are all paid for courtesy of the American People, the American people are great employers, aren't they?

The people whose lives are on the line have my highest regard. To me, there is no easy collateral loss. We are not a Democracy, but I was raised to believe in the principles of Democracy, being that all of us are born equal, and have an equal stake in the building and perpetuation of our nation.

I feel like I cannot win with you people...If I was never in the military then what grounds would I have to support the GWB and the Iraq war? But if I was in the military I for some strange reason cannot support capitalism.

Whatever people! You give someone an argument that he cannot win because you are challenging his actions and then when he tries to defend himself you call him illogical. I am not illogical for defending my actions but it is illogical to bring my actionsl into question.

I am defending myself here and no longer defending my points. I should not have to defend myself to defend my policy views. It is not logical to challenge someone’s points by challenging their actions. But in so much as anyone here would like to go down that road I will because I do believe in living my life within the same moral framework as my philosophy.

Regards

 

[Townsend]

"...you luxuriate in the fruit of them..."

If you think the military is easy, if you think my service has not put me in harms way and if think I or a lot of the rest of military are over paid for the work we do then I am certain that you do not know anyone in the military who has ever had to deploy.

Regards

 

[russ_watters]

This probably belongs in another thread in another forum but since some people want to question my service I think now is a good time to go through the old photo album. This is going to be great...

I am scanning pictures right now...

Don't bother. Photos can be faked and people who don't want to believe you won't, no matter what you post. You shouldn't care about what people like that think.

tumor, stop with the personal attacks right now.

I'm also a former (but not future) sailor and I salute you as well.

 

[Dayle Record]

I found this little piece today, it purports to be a letter from a US soldier, that is soon to redeploy to Iraq. It purports, like everything else in here, in many ways. I thought this was so the flip side of this that I would post it. I saw many images on TV just before the election of guys in the field, in Iraq, stating that they wanted out, and they thought the John Kerry, would get them out. Anyway, here is that letter.
**********************************************

4 more years America
If you voted for Bush, didn't vote, or voted no on gay marriage, I hope you get drafted.
I hope they stick you in my unit, and you go with me to Iraq when my unit goes back in September. I will laugh when you see what soldiers in that country face on a daily basis. I hope you work with gay soldiers too. I did. One of them saved my life. Think he shouldn't have the right to get married? F**k you. He fought just as hard as I did and on most days, did his job better than me. Don't tell me gays don't have the same rights you do.
Think the war in Iraq is a good thing? I'll donate my M-16 to you and you can go in my place.

 

[BobG]

There is a fallacy in thinking that because you work for the government, or the defense industry, you are a patriot, or you have more value to society, or you hold a higher worth... While you strike out at socialistic practices, you luxuriate in the fruit of them. Your education, medical, and retirement are all paid for courtesy of the American People, the American people are great employers, aren't they?

Your first post is partially true, but you don't understand why. I would imagine that very few are patriotic enough to spend 20 years living in misery, but just about no one stays in the military for the money.

New recruits, as poorly paid as they are, probably make more money in the military than could in civilian life because they have no training. Still, most of them are paid little enough that a significant portion of that education money comes in the form of Pell grants, which are available to both civilians and military. There are very few jobs in the military where civilian pay would be lower as a career, even with the medical and retirement benefits. For your more technical enlisted jobs, the military throws in re-enlistment bonuses, but that is usually only enough that a person doesn't feel like a total fool for doing something they love to do, anyway.

More important is the environment. While patriotism plays at least a part of that, it's hanging around with folks that have similar values that provides the more significant motivation. Your second post supports that - even those that don't like military life learn teamwork. People in the military seem to care for each other a little more than your typical neighbors care for each other.

Anyway, here is that letter.
**********************************************

4 more years America
If you voted for Bush, didn't vote, or voted no on gay marriage, I hope you get drafted.
I hope they stick you in my unit, and you go with me to Iraq when my unit goes back in September. I will laugh when you see what soldiers in that country face on a daily basis. I hope you work with gay soldiers too. I did. One of them saved my life. Think he shouldn't have the right to get married? F**k you. He fought just as hard as I did and on most days, did his job better than me. Don't tell me gays don't have the same rights you do.
Think the war in Iraq is a good thing? I'll donate my M-16 to you and you can go in my place.

I had one of those technical jobs, so I never went anywhere dangerous. For me, hardship was being away from my family - I had to go all alone to places I probably would have never had the chance to see, otherwise - Alaska, Italy - not much of a hardship, so I'm not going to criticize that soldier's feelings.

A lot of people enter the military for a chance to contribute to their country, education, adventure, etc. and then find it isn't all that it's cracked up to be. I, and most others, were always pretty tolerant of the first termers that complained about how things turned out for them. This guy has done something good for his country and he has the right to complain.

I wouldn't say your letter reflects the attitude of your average career military member, though. After four years, you know what military life is like and those that stay in have good personal reasons for doing so. So, if you like, there is no reason for you to feel sympathy for them. There's also no reason for you to put them down either.

 

[tumor]

I only wish that now Bush reinstates military draft! and sons and daughters of Bush supporters are going to be send to Iraq and die or be maimed there!
ONLY that will teach them to think before they cast their votes!

 

[russ_watters]

tumor, Dayle you just don't get it and I honestly don't think there is any way to explain it to you.

It is true that very few people who haven't been in the military really understand it, but that's true of anything that people haven't tried. But it is willful ignorance to assume that people are lying when they aren't telling you what you want to believe.

I can tell you (and I'm sure Townsend can as well) stories of people I knew who were unhappy with their situation and didn't just write letters but acted out. It happens all the time and it has nothing to do with war (if anything, war increases morale).

There are people who signed up for the military partially/largely out of patriotism, and they are quite willing to give their lives to defend their country.

You're looking for hypocrisy where none exists.

 

[kat]

My brother re-upped after having been out of the service for quite some time. In fact his origional recall date had ended 2 months before the first gulf war preperations started. I was angry at him at first (he has two young children and a beautiful dutch wife) but when he explained that he felt it was his obligation to give back to his country and that he felt the armed services need older experienced men to lead the younger men, I understood how much it meant to him and I support him in that. So, you can keep believing that men and women are in Iraq against their will or you can understand that many men and women feel strongly that being in the armed services at this time is the right and just thing to do.
I also can't understnd the mindset that says "we lost" I hope now young men and women get sent over there to die. Maybe that's one reason that your side lost..Americans who had strong moral convictions couldn't stand seeing the small petty populace rising to the top...jest a little something to think about.

 

[franznietzsche]

Socialism does not say that whatever you do you will not be held responsible for your actions, it does not say you can live your life as a bum and live comfortably by support of the government. There are many drug addicts in my town who are living on the street because the government refuses to support people who won't do anything. They don't even get full medical treatment if they need it. They will be supported by the Government under certain conditions and if they go through rehab but not otherwise. Unemployed people will not be supported by the government if they can't get jobs (They are now, but we're going through a small recession and its hard to get a job - this will change soon).

FYI

THEN ITS NOT SOCIALISM.

End of story.

 

[nbo10]

http://www.thegreenside.com/Home.asp?SID=4170&N=Home

I found this site the other day. It tells a pretty different story from what you hear from the MSM about the soldiers over in Iraq.

 

[tumor]

About what kind of morals are we talking here? Morals to kill innocent civillians?Who the hell are we kidding here?

PS. Last True American Patriots died in the War of Independence.

 

[Lyuokdea]

PS. Last True American Patriots died in the War of Independence.

Are you seriously trying to say that we shouldn't have gotten involved in World War II? So if Country X bombs our shipyard and kills thousands of our soldiers, it is immoral and unjustifiable for us to defend ourselves, but, if our own country is taxing us too much and telling us not to kill Indians, we should be free to start a Civil War? From almost any objective standpoint, World War II was much more justifiable than the Revolutionary War.

~Lyuokdea

 

[russ_watters]

If you don't even accept that they exist, how are you ever going to get them to vote for a democrat? No wonder the party has only had one decisively elected president in 50 years.