The Smoking Man said:
So are you going to make the announcement about the manditory self education or should I?
What part of 'cloud cuckoo land' did you say you lived in?
Wait up there, TSM - I think you misunderstand me, and this is probably my own fault: I did not explain myself as clearly as I should have. Here is an elaboration of what I meant, and it is based on some important lessons I have learned not only from history in general but also from my own personal history, and they amount to this:
1. If you are going to fight a battle, you have to know exactly what/who your enemy is and what you are fighting for. To effect fundamental change, I have no doubts that battles will have to be fought - but your understanding must be clear and you must know what your goals are before you agree to enter the fight, otherwise you risk being used as a pawn in other groups' agendas. This is a lesson I have learned from both sources I mentioned above. I have participated in broad-based 'protest politics' and I have seen the results. Instead of achieving greater justice and a better society, all that happened as a result of those struggles is that a particular group of the privileged were supplemented by another group of privileged, and the lot of the mass of the population did not improve. I see you quoted John Pilger in another of your postings; he is someone whose work I also follow. I wonder if you have ever seen his documentary
Apartheid Did Not Die? That was the battleground on which I learned my lessons, and the outcome was disgraceful, as the Pilger documentary demonstrates (the reality is much worse than what is shown in the documentary). I was incredibly naive to believe that things could have turned out any differently given the major players involved - my analysis was flawed, and this is a mistake. I would advise everyone who wants to change the world to first understand the situation else your actions may contribute to creating a situation that favours the 'bad guys'.
2. Small terrorist actions do nothing but rightfully antagonise the population in general - one needs highly politicised, mass-based action to effect fundamental change. But before people will act, they have to know what sort of world they are living in, why it is necessary for them to act, and what sort of action they should take - thus my advice that people educate themselves. People need to understand politics before they engage in political action.
The Smoking Man said:
What is it you are trying to say? On the one hand you quote what happened and then you contradict yourself by doubting what you said.
Could you please be more specific? I don't see where I contradicted myself.
The Smoking Man said:
Geldoff was Knighted for what he did in the past. What he managed to do was to raise the consciousness of people, load up trucks with food AND get it delivered to starving people.
My argument is that Geldoff is applying band-aids. Perhaps this is why you disagree with me - I believe that capitalism cannot be reformed (which is what Geldoff is trying to do - "Let's ask the politicians to 'be nice'." "Yeah, sure, Sir Geldoff!" - and then you accuse
me of living in 'cuckoo could land'?). I believe that equality and justice will only come with fundamental structural social change, ie. if capitalism is replaced by socialism (real socialism, not the varieties that have existed so far). Is this what you meant by asking me if I live in 'cloud cuckoo land'? Is this aim so unrealistic? Well, I think it is humanity's only hope. Sorry, TSM, I just can't see a 'benevolent' capitalism; to me, this is a contradiction in terms.
The Smoking Man said:
Politicians are not the solution to the problem. They are slaves to the process.
I totally agree. Politicians are the executive branch of capital, and are entirely on capital's side and against the common people. I have said this over and over again on these boards. I find it odd that you think I believe politicians are redeemable; perhaps you have not read any of my other posts?
The Smoking Man said:
Geldoff has a knack of doing in just a couple of months what it takes politicians years to achieve.
My argument is that Geldoff has not brought about any structural, lasting change, and that he cannot bring about such change. He provides temporary salves to a festering wound; that's the best he can do. To bring about change, one has to challenge the structure of social organisation; he does not do that.
The Smoking Man said:
Would you say that if he made even 5% of the crowd aware of what the problems truly were ... if he managed to drag them kicking and screaming into reality he had done a good thing?
I do not know whether or not Geldoff himself is aware of what the problems really are; from my own experience I know that it has taken me years and years of intensive study to understand them, however. I do not think a music-focused event (and I have been to a few myself - though none of these recent ones) really focus on the issues. There are catchy slogans, yes - 'Make Poverty History'. Sure, guys, but how? How do we do this? What will it take?
The Smoking Man said:
The event cost nothing save what people were willing to pay out of their own pockets. There were no 'taxes' and few administrative costs.
But I am not arguing that anyone made or paid anything - I don't see the relevance of this point.
The Smoking Man said:
The fact that you are here debating the issue is proof enough it has people talking about the issue.
Good point - but still, I would argue that people need to be talking at a deeper level.
The Smoking Man said:
Are you talking about a US Centric perspective?
Most of the world signed Kyoto. Most of the world went ahead and decided they woud attempt to pick up the extra 'cost' of American protectionism.
The US is responsible for about a third (30.3%) of greenhouse gas emissions (Reference: http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/tables/globalwarming.htm ), so the US administration's refusal to contemplate any environmental policy similar to Kyoto has serious implications:
Bush rejects Kyoto-style G8 deal
Mr Bush said he would resist measures that were similar to the 1997 UN Kyoto Protocol, involving legally binding reductions on carbon emissions, which Washington never ratified. ..."The Kyoto treaty would have wrecked our economy, if I can be blunt."
He said he hoped the other G8 leaders would "move beyond the Kyoto debate" and consider new technologies. Reference:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4647383.stm
The Smoking Man said:
Geldoff ISN'T American.
I seriously doubt that if the thing did have effects that there would be any coverage in the US press unless there were significant sound bytes in support of US politicians.
AT no point did I argue that Geldoff is American - his nationality is irrelevant to me. And I don't live in the US, but there was very little on Australian mainstream media about these concerts, and what there was was apolitical except for the bits that showed the 'small group of anarchists' who were 'ruining' the whole thing with their 'politics'. People are allowed to demonstrate, you see, as long as they are 'apolitical'. Well, I don't believe that one can do anything if one is apolitical. These gatherings were totally controlled by the 'establishment', and it is not unreasonable to conclude that they are allowed to proceed only as long as people don't actually 'rock the boat':
Protesters breach G8 march route Riot police and protesters have clashed after the demonstrators broke away from the agreed route of a march near the G8 summit venue at Gleneagles. ...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/4654767.stm
